I am these purposes changes with the monks with the goal of making monks micro easier
When converting one unit with multiple monks shift-clicking a new target will deselect one monk who will continue to convert the original target while the rest of the monks will convert the new target
Auto-convert stance: monks will auto convert the first enemy within their range while this requires no micro this is also extremely exploitable
Group conversion stance: shift clicking one unit will cause a group of monks to target a nearby unit of the same type in proximity to the first unit.
I don’t believe the effectiveness of a unit should be gatekept by terrible controls that require a tedious amount of unnecessary micro. If this make monks OP then they should be nerfed.
Let me disagree.
Microing monks is not that difficult really. Just practice in the editor for a while and then go give it a try in a live battle. Remember - you can assign up to 20 control groups. Monks micro is one of those things which gives you edge over players who can`t do it. The same with pushing deer, archers attack+move micro and so on.
Unfortunately many players dont even try the monks command group micro before complaining on the forum. As a result there are calls to rework Orthodoxy and Madrasah, two cheap and effective monk UTs
As a result there are calls to rework Orthodoxy and Madrasah, two cheap and effective monk UTs
Hijacking the thread because I’ve got a large response to this.
I cannot say much about the aspect of Monk micro, but I advocate for the reworking of Madrasah because I find it to be borderline useless.
Madrasah requires your Monks to die for the effect to be useful. You don’t want your units to die, period; doesn’t matter what civ you are, doesn’t matter what units you’re fielding, any unit you lose is a detriment to you, and a benefit to your enemy. What units of yours do you want to die? Petards, Demolition Ships & Flaming Camels. Intentional suicide units.
The 33% gold refund does not do enough to incentivize Monk rushing, as it does nothing for your Monks while they’re out there converting or healing, unlike the aforementioned Orthodoxy which lets Slavic Monks survive for just a bit longer.
Hell, in AoE I there’s a tech that lets you turn Priests into suicide units, where by deleting said Priests will grant instant conversion.
A madrasah is quite literally an Arabic/Middle Eastern university. My knowledge on the culture in that part of the world is limited, but I’m quite sure that madrasahs have nothing to do with religion. So, if anything, Madrasah should instead apply to University technologies, or maybe even the Town Center. I talked about this a while ago in the main Discord server, where I had an interesting idea that caused Madrasah to allow Universities to train Villagers. It’s a bit of a radical change that would require a lot of balancing (tech cost, slow training time, inability to garrison etc,) but I thought it was on the right path.
If Madrasah is kept as a Monk tech, then I would propose that the tech simply make Monks cost less, for the same amount of gold saved when Madrasah Monks would die. You get the reduction up front, and you don’t need them to - I repeat - die just to get some of it back.
Who actually uses all 20 though? I don’t use above 10, and even then only 1-5 are actually easy to click, so I try and avoid going above that. Like the other post, Madrasah is actually not good. Orthodoxy also isn’t good, becomes in too late for an effective monk rush, requires a castle, and doesn’t even make them live that much longer. Sure, it increases the chance of getting conversions, but it’s still pretty useless.
Well i guess that just proves his point, right? If you dont use half your controllgroups, might as well use them for monks.
Now, i never tried this, but i can sure imagine it beeing effective. Assign 10 different monks to buttons far away from where your other hotkeys are (but close to each other). When you want to convert, shift the hand to the monk hotkeys, quickly start 10 conversions. Should work well enough.
Still does not make monks a late game option, as their enourmous gold cost just forbidds that.
To do that, you basically need a num pad, which most laptops don’t have. Also, bear in mind you also need to assign your regular hotkeys to monks as well, which creates other issues.
If you convert it, and remember, in the lategame, the number of hussars/light cav running around can get quite high, so monks don’t have a long life expentency. Also, as the fights get larger and more macro scaled, monk micro gets progressively harder.
Not sure what you mean by need to assign regular hotkeys to monks, but yes, without a num pad the monks micro get`s bothersome. Thankfully my HP laptop has a numpad.
I normally use the hotkeys 1-5, sometimes above, but usually those. They are my default control group hotkeys. Because I believe being pretty efficient, I’ve developed my own hotkey set, kind of like the DE defaults, but entirely on the left and no grid system. The similarity being how both are on the left of the keyboard and quite compact. If I want to select a control group, I press the number key that corresponds to it. I use 1-5 most because my hand is already in that position. As soon as you get above that, it now becomes harder to switch between control groups. I don’t even use anything more than control group 10, because binding it requires me to press ctrl+alt+x and then alt-x to select it, which is really inneficient, and I’m likely to tap the wrong thing by mistake. If I had a num pad, which I don’t, but if I did, that’s on the other side of the keyboard, which is just as bad. Hence, for me, and probably most others, monk micro using all 20 possible control groups isn’t really viable. 1 through 10 in a monk arena game? Sure. But when you need to start converting straight away, anything after 10 isn’t viable.
How is this an issue? switching hand position takes not even half a second, and is surely worth when microing 10++ monks. Its surely faster than keeping your hand where it is and not using it because you do all the micro with your mouse.
On of those units isn’t convertable, and one barely every sees play…im not denying monks can be situationaly good, mostly against BBC, but claiming they are overall strong is just wrong.
I think for monks control groups are just not useful. Cotrol groups are - as the name suggests - for groups. Right opposite Monk micro is individual unit micro.
But it’s clear that whenever this is introduced it must come with a slight nerf to monks and possibly also some adjustments to certain civs like aztecs.
And to whoever claims monk micro was easy… I don’t know in what world you live in.
Half a second maybe, but you have the risk of hitting the wrong key, and then half a second to switch back. Half a sec can also be the difference between a conversion and a dead monk.
since all your keys in that area will do the exact same thing - select a single monk - there is no “wrong key”.
Again, im not saying monk micro is easy or that monks are a good lategame units, but telling us youd rather micro big 10+ with your mouse alone than switching hand position and doing it with hotkeys is really weird.
I’m not saying I’d use a mouse. I would use 10 control groups, and cycle through them quickly, but the point is, above 10 becomes a lot less efficient without a num pad.
Never heard anyone doing this and I think that takes way too much time. Just use your regular 1-10 hotkeys. If you have more than 10 monks you’re probably in imp in either way. Even if you monk rush on arena rarely you have more than 10-15 monks in castle age. Larger amounts of monks need theocracy to use effectively. Meaning if you convert one unit with several monks only one needs to rest. And in the time you use 20 hotkeys to start conversions some monks will be done with their task so you can just as well use these for new conversions instead of setting up such a crazy amount of control groups.
Well in late game you don’t use that amount of monks either way. Let’s be real the only realistic scenario here is arena games where you either go no eco full monks in castle age and/or buy the food to go fast imp.
As long as you stay with 5 (some people manage to use it effectively with up to 10 units) it is actually super useful. You need some time to set up the groups sure but the value you get from that can be insane. And if you play monks you don’t have other units to micro or on control groups (maybe some pikes or a mangonel) and no eco to focus anyways.
Btw the alternative is (and usually use this way as I’m too lazy to set up that many control groups) to select to whole group of monks, start converting and then select one by one single monks from the UI to target different units one after another.
i personally don’t like conversion mechanic and i think it’s already a great counter to some very strong unit that does not need to be made any stronger. but that may just be my personal taste or dislike of the wololo power