How is italians weak in all phases of the game? They are a solid and balanced civ. Not the best but they still have good units. And have cheaper age up. Full blacksmith.
And Geneose crosbow are amazing.
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Omf it’s like staring me right in the face… Plumed archer… 65 mofo hp 2 PA. High movement speed. Faster than avg RoF. Mofo cheap upgrade to elite.
In comparison we have the Genoese xbow.
Slower. 50hp. 1 less range. Even after their UT still has less PA. This on a guy with a giant shield on his back.
UT and Elite upgrade 1200 food and 900 gold. Vs 700f and 1000w Eplume and the plume is cheaper to train
Who wins? You guessed it. The plumed archer. Wtf does it win? Because its mesos. They deserve to win. So therefore they do. But the game is balanced 
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Well El Dorado is little bit too strong yea. I always found it weird how much stronger 100 health eagles sound, and are, compared to the other eagle counterparts. Mayan Eagles are just the best, granted Aztec and Inca UT affects some other units as well.
Mayans feel like a noskill civ as their Eagles fare well against everything except champions and their arbalest are super cheap.
Id like them to either tune down the UT to +20 hp and make it affect plumes somehow (for example tuning elite plume HP down by 10) or just lower it to +30.
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Stop nerfing the Mayans lol. They ahve been nerfed 8 times may be since HD. Its time to stop this 1111.
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Well. According to your logic, Goths is best Post-Imp civ. No infantry civ can beat Goths cost-effectively. 20 Goths champion beat 13 Japanese Champion. Also, Tatars is the best Heavy Cavarly civ because their Keshik is nearly half-gold cost of Paladin. ’
Cheaper cost doesn’t mean you can always field more number of your unit in the battle. Pop efficiency is also issue in the imperial battle. Just generic Cavarlier beat Mayans eagle 1v1 means it is not overpowered. Also, many civs access to Paladin or better Cavalier.
People already do train these units. We cannot see much of these unit because game not last long in Arabia. In the map which game last long like Arena can see more of these unit. Karambit is amazing that they train insanely fast and cannot countered by archer.
Actually, ETK can be effective in plenty of matchups. If you are celts and Teutons opponent pressure you with forward castle and Teutonic Knight and also Teutons Monks ready to convert your seige. How can you stop it?
Also, if you are Italians and match with Cavarly civs and you will not train EGC? It makes 0 sense.
I am not insisting that Mayans don’t need any adjustment. I actually feel that Mayans new UT is bit too strong. but El Dorado is completely fine. All civs have answer to El dorado Eagle. Even THS beat El dorado Eagle. Persians have only Longswords but they have access to Paladin.
The fast answer is: no they don’t need to touch el dorado, most civ got supplies which pretty much helps to counter eagle line, mayans have been nerfed enough.
They are easy and effective to play but their options are not overpower.
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And every single other match up? Nevermind that GC really aren’t looked upon very well due to the slow tt and inability to mass. There is literally almost never a case when mayans shouldn’t go el dorado
And this is why they are referred to as memes? And almost never used. Again compared to el dorado which is an auto include.
Yet we’ll see el dorado per mayan match much higher than the units i mentioned per match.
And i think this is why people are defending them. The same with the way they defended franks. Or khmer. noskill civs which were apparently balanced…
Use huns or tatars and let me know how that goes.
In the same way they didn’t need to touch Franks, aztecs, khmer, vikings
Lol, it’s fun that people try hard to prove that other civs do use units like GC and TK just to avoiding nerfing their precious mayans eagles.
Like, yeah for sure, let’s put those units on the same level of El Dorado eagles, both for power and how many times you see them.
Like, yes let’s pretend that some civs, that are clearly not on the level of mayans, are on their same level, just to avoid even talking about nerfing one of the top civs…
Then I would like to see how many time they actually choose Italians or teutons on arabia over mayans… or how many time if they go random and get, I don’t know, a teutons vs mayans, how much do they blame luck and call it a civ win…
Personally, I don’t think that El Dorado need a nerf (but even if it would be reduced to 30HP it would still be a powerful tech), but some people really stretch it in order to justify their opinions.
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Actually… You guys are right. El dorado is fine.
Because its fine obviously we should be able to give britons, goths, Ethiopians, vikings and celts blood lines and plate barding.
I mean if its ok mayans already have a1 vil lead from the start, a FU hugely discounted meta unit (arbs), a never ending eco bonus and a unit that basically only has one counter(and there’s actually civs that can’t counter it). Then why can’t the above civs have access to an inferior version in the form of a FU cavalier?
I mean one civ is entirely locked into the least meta line, with every eco bonus tied into abusing that one unit line, but they aren’t allowed to have a remotely decent cavalier, but mayans can have something even better? What?
My point is that mayans shouldn’t be able to do everything and still have a horde of eco bonuses on top of that.
Either you can do everything but your eco isn’t overly oppressive. Or you can do a few things really well, and your eco helps you do it.
Imagine vikings with a better version of a FU cavalier.
Or Franks with access to arbs and bracer.
Or giving berbers an actual early game eco boost on top of their cheaper cavaliers and then give them parthian tactics as well. Because that’s the equivalent mayans get. A FU discounted unit. And a unit that is better than the corresponding meta line. On top of an eco bonus.
Magyar and lith both have very minimal eco bonuses to compensate for their tech trees.
Italy literally has none of the above.
But you think mayans are balanced they aren’t breaking the game but they are definitely too strong/ez to use.
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except the difference is that Mayans were literally just nerfed, again. 4th nerf since DE went live. lets wait and see how it impacts them.
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Mayan have always been a bit weird, they have by far the best eagles but at the same time they really need that HP meatshield in some situations.
One possibility would be to leave El Dorado untouched and instead remove blast furnace from the tech tree. Eagles are still tanky, but deal low damage…fitting for an archer civ. Halbs would be only slightly nerfed by this, so they are still perfectly viable.
To compensate for this, I would instead give mayans supplies and champions. They don’t need those in 98% of the cases, but there are times where it hurts mayans a lot to be stuck with no supplies 2hs.
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Increasing its cost is a useful and subtle nerf.
Just nerf Eldorado from 40 to 35. Small nerfs step by step to see if its fine. In a year we can discuss again if it needs to be reverted or further nerfed to 30.
Even if mayans end up UP for some time, it is fine. Mesos don’t have a build in right to be competitive. Other civs suck too. Mayans had their time.
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Bad logic, every civ should be competitive, at least reasonably so.
Ports are bad on Arabia, but are great on Water maps, for example.
Why are people here so often clamoring for additional nerfs to civs when we just had a balance patch two weeks ago? Mayans lost OA after all. Why don’t we let the dust settle before deciding that it is obvious Mayans need more nerfs to be balanced?
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I wouldn’t blindly listen to everything Hera, TheViper or any other top player might say. Now before someone jumps to his guns let me explain myself.
I acknowledge that they are the best at Aoe2 and their insights on the game is far better than mine. But at the same time their skills are beyond the average, and so is their ability to use anything to its maximum efficiency and effectiveness. I mean, if you put the average player on Franks against Hera on Vietnamese, you kind of guess who would win, right?
So when they say something is strong and need a nerf, i wonder if it is really, objectively strong, or it is just good and their skills push it past the limit?
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Except those civs have advantage in tech tree over Mayans in some aspects. Britons access to FU champion and plate barding armor to at least usable cavarly. Ethiopians and Celts have the best seige in the game to compensate their weak tech tree. Goths can counter all unit type with infantry and they access to BBC to snipe enemy’s seige. Mayans late game don’t have answer to Onagers. They lack BBC and redemption monks. Only viable answer is Eagle but it will be slaughtered by champion guarding seige.
Vikings have the best eco in the game after Aztecs nerf and Mayans eco is not the same level.
Actually, most of your example is all infantry civs and they have bonus in champion and Mayans lack champion. Literally only viable melee unit for mayans except Halbs is Eagle. That is difference.
Ethiopians are other example but they have deadly seige.
Mayans can’t do anything. They have no answer to Huskarls, Infantry + Onager in late game and hard countered by Goths, Celts, Teutons in late game. And meso civs including Mayans dead after they runs out of gold
Actually, Berserkers trade cost effectively to Paladin. 5 berserkers win against 3 Paladin. They already have “better version” of FU cavalier
Mayans don’t have stable.
Except Mayans don’t have scout to fight in Feudal. Eagle training time in Feudal is so long and not really viable option. They need at least small eco bonus to survive in Feudal.
I am not saying that Mayans don’t need any adjustment. I already said that Mayans new UT is bit overpowered and might need rework.
Maybe Mayans can be slightly better than other civs. But if it is not a game-breaking issue and just slightly better. Leave just as is. Incas are more broken in my opinion. Some people actually only training Incas trush and climbing ladder. Incas trush is uncountable in some situations but all civs have answer to El dorado Eagle. Paladin is also better unit than mayans eagle. You will insist Paladin need nerf?
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In matter of fact, their winrate has increased since last patch from 52% to 55%.
And as long as they have 55+% winrate, they deserve to be nerfed.
Yet, I’m only asking for el dorado, which doesn’t help in every game.
Mayan 1v1 1650+ stats
I’m in favor of giving Mayan champions (+some nerf for balance), but +30 HP or +40 HP on eagles won’t change anything against goths.
+1
I like this idea very much.
This seems obvious to me.
Buffs and nerfs should always be based on pros.
You balance about how good something is played, not about how bad.
(Yet the majority of players should still A BIT be taken into consideration.)
I would like to see the eagle’s production lightly increased.
While I agree that we should be careful with nerfs, the removal of obsidian arrows doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme of things. It was a tech which was situationally overpowered, but it didn’t really affect the vast majority of mayan games, as you want to go plumes as soon as you can in castle, not xbows.
Obsoibly the goal is not to nerf mayans into oblivion. Instead bring them down to a balanced reasonable level, that’s why I proposed a meager - 5 hp nerf. And if that end up making them Up then so be it.
People don’t need to be scared. Atelast try improving situation. Worst case mayans are up and need to revert.
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