I have been thinking about how the Holy Roman Empire is represented in age of empires 2. We have a mishmash of cultures, kingdoms, people in the game. In some cases named after modern countries, in other cases orders such as Teutons in the game.
The medieval history of Europe is complicated with different dynasties fighting for powers, something I am not an expert in. But as far as I understand (wikipedia) the HRE consisted of the Kingdoms of Germany, Italy, Bohemia and Burgundy. Out of these the latter three are now in the game. Are Teutons meant to represent Germans as a whole, or rather the Teutonic order, which was concentrated to the baltic sea to the east?
Should Germany be in the game, outside the Teutons? Since we now have Burgundians and Bohemians, are there other Central European cultures/kingdoms, etc, which played a big role historically, what about Austrians, or the Swiss?
Regarding Italy, I am thinking that the current Italy could be renamed to Genoa, and a new Venice civ created. Is this unnecessary?
I for one would really like to see Swiss pikemen in the game, though as I understand what is modern Switzerland has its origin in the later Middle Ages and before that under influence of various houses and dynasties of Europe. Perhaps Swiss mercenary pikemen could be available as mercenaries in the imperial age. Though I know many might oppose to this, I believe there is a time period in the late Middle Ages where those fought in the battlefields of Europe.
Also interested in adding Scotland to the game, with well organised pike armed Schiltrons. Celts would still stay in the game.
What, if any changes, additions would you make to European civilisations in the game?
I know many are interested in cultures outside Europe primarily, but please leave this outside this thread.
They are the HRE as a whole and TO and any other German faction like Austria or Bavaria. Maybe even a generic crusader state if you look at the scenarios.
Absolutely erurope and every where else for that matter, that is why the original devs made culture grougps such as teutons vikings celts rather than nations or kingdoms like now.
Sure we can add them but not really a necessity as we have other factions who can represent them. same goes for scotland.
Austrisns and Venetians are unnecesary yes, I dont see them adding anything. Swisd I still think its unnecesary but could add sonething gameplaywise. And Teutons are the HRE. The name doesnt mstter really.
In Europe the only civ that’s missing IMO, if looking at a map, are the Southern Slavs (Serbs Croats…), good luck to find a name that wouldn’t cause the Balkans to burn, and the Slavs should be renamed as the Rus. And depending on where you place the limits of Europe, a Caucasus civ like the Georgians.
With the limit of 9 more civs (is that limit of 48 really hard-coded ?), adding duchy-level civs cannot really be afforded, unless they have a very unique gameplay that’s different from what we already have, as was the case for the Bohemians. Italians already have bonuses for trade and their navy, I see no point in splitting them into the Genoese and the Venitians who both were naval merchant republics. Plus it would leave aside other important Italian cities like Milan or Florence.
As for the Swiss, maybe but their citizen militia concept would really need being good to take a slot. There already is something similar with the Burgundians (whose territory included Switzerland in the early Middle Ages) and their Flemish Revolution tech, the villagers taking arms to become an anti-cavalry force (close enough from the Swiss pikemen).
it’s cognate with the german “Deutsch” which is the german word for “German”
the latin name for the Kingdom of Germany was Regnum Teutonicum.
hence “Teutonic knight” simply means “German knight”. Teutonic knights mainly came from all over Germany, and secondarily from other kingdoms. It’s similar to the fact that Saracens called the crusader “Franks”, most coming from France.
Holy Roman Empire / Germans / Habsburgs / Bavarians / Austrians - name to be determined
It would have two unique units that would function like the Condottiero of the Italians civ (mercenary units) - Landsknecht & Swiss Pikeman. This civilization would become the German umbrella for the Germans of the Holy Roman Empire. The Teutons civ are based almost exclusively on the Teutonic Order - their Unique Unit is based on the knights of the Order and they performed during the Crusades and in the Teutonic Order.
Like the broadly understood Slavs, Indians, Chinese, Japanese, Spaniards, etc.
The concept of nationality is a modern invention that cannot be used in any way to portray the Middle Ages.
Civilization is a very broad term. If culture, tradition, customs and cuisine are part of civilization, then HRE can be called civilization - a supranational civilization with strong German influences that exerted a very strong influence on other peoples inhabiting HRE. For example, the Czechs, although they are Slavs, are culturally closer to Germany, among others thanks to their coexistence with Germany within the HRE.
The HRE civ could be a civilization without any problems but you would have to find a nice name for this civ. This civ would add units not currently in the game, new content, and would represent, simplified, the Germans of the HRE - so it is needed.
Teutons are already “the HRE civ” since they cover all high- and late- medieval Germans. Look at their coat of arms, history file, and there is also that campaign about the olympic swimmer Barbarossa in which you notably consolitate the HRE playing as the Teutons.
Keep in mind that AOE2 is not a grand strategy game, this is not Crusader Kings in which you select a country on the map and it doesn’t matter if the only flavour difference between these 50 countries are a few events and the location on the map. Civs in AOE2 have to play differently to reflect culture groups. Austria was actually very similar to the Teutonic Order, both having the same role of being the local military power to protect the heartland of the HRE. The main difference is the Teutonic Order outright conquered more land to the east while Austria could rely on the buffer that Hungary formed, once converted to christianity. What would Austria or Saxony offer that the Teutons don’t already, and that couldn’t be done by using an existing civ for a campaign scenario (Goths Vikings…) ?
As for landsknechts, they only appeared at the very end of the medieval period, the term appeared first in 1480 which is after the last european campaign scenario (I’m not counting Lepanto which is a chronological outlier), and were mostly prevalent in the 16th century during the wars of the Reformation. And even then, Teutons have a bonus on their halberdiers, making them more tanky which is great to offer a cover to vulnerable hand cannoneers. Here’s your pike-and-shot, both mutually covering some of the other’s weaknesses.
For new civs to be made in areas already well-covered with current civs, they either need covering a large culture group that was blatantly absent (Poles) or have an interesting gameplay (Bohemians which are mainly based on the Hussite reformation, the religious peasant army using chariots which except that weird korean unique unit didn’t exist ingame)
DE is basically v2 of civis already in game so more is not really that much of an issue. I dont think there are any civis that can add anything new game play vise now.
Dont forget we have the winged hussars in game now so pike and shot units are perfectly fine now.
Yeah but I still can use it as a criticism to the civs. Imo civs that dont add too much are fine as long as they couldnt have been representedby a similar civ that closely related somehow.
Unique Units say for themselves that it would be something new fresh. Really a lot of people expect the Swiss Spearmen, ta civ would give them that.
Unique Technologies for this civ can also be invented. I will create them in my free time (so far I do not have it, because the academic year has started).
The campaign, the civ description and the civ dial are things that can be easily updated which would not have any impact on the entertainment.
This civ is based solely on the Teutonic Order. Now let me show you the evidence of this:
Teutonic Knight - this unit is 100% based on the knights of the Teutonic Order. There were no such units in HRE. The very pattern of the cross in the model of this unit proves a reference to the Teutonic Order
Crenellations - this technology also refers to the Teutonic Order. Here is a description of the history of this UT:
“The Teutons carried their crusade mainly into Eastern Europe while others groups vied for the Holy Land. The Teutons became especially adept at the art of building and using castles offensively to establish political control of the countryside. A few knights and soldiers in a dominating castle could control the countryside for miles.”
The second UT “Ironclad” is neutral - it does not refer to any civilization.
So the most important elements of this civilization refer to the Teutonic Order. Even the name is actually most associated with the Teutonic Order. There is nothing in this civ to refer to HRE or non-Teutonic Germans in general - except for the rulers’ names which can simply be updated, and neither is the civ shield and its description.
Nope
Let’s start with the fact that some popular medieval units are still not featured in this game. Many people want to see Switzerland as a civ with less to offer than the Germans (HRE) civ. CK is a game that can present basically all the countries of the Middle Ages, but it has nothing to do with AoE. Civilizations in AoE 2 simply have to be different. If you find something interesting for a nation or kingdom you can basically create a new civ. AoE 2 actually uses a kind of fiction because northern Italians were not united in the Middle Ages - neither did the Indians. Quite a few civs also have pan-European units as their Unique Units - giving you the ability to add new civs with common units as UU.
Austria and other German states such as Bavaria, Saxony, Brandenburg and the Hanseatic states were significantly different from each other. The differences between the various German regions / states are huge. If you are not interested in Germany and its culture and history, you will have the impression of a unitary, homogeneous nation, which is not true. Bavarians, Austrians, Saxons and Westfalen are separate nations with their own culture, traditions and history. They are united by the fact that they are all Germans - it is as if the Slavs united and had a common state. I hope I have already explained who the Germans are. Many German states were rich - numerous magnificent castles, cities of splendor, and a flourishing of culture, science and art. The Teutonic Order differed significantly from Germany from HRE - it can be called a border state. The Teutonic Order was almost 100% focused on the Christianization of Eastern Europe - strong militarism and the economy was focused on providing the necessary needs for the army.
Same as any other civ that is part of a huge umbrella or simply not represented in the game - lots of new stuff.
This question, I believe, shows a lack of interest and knowledge of medieval Germany and HRE.
Polish civ and Lithuanians civ have the Winged Hussar - a unit even younger than Landsknecht.
And that’s exactly what Germany has to offer. It would be easy to add 4 German HRE civs, but I think that with the 48 civs limit, one all-German civ is enough.
A much better wording would be Franks&French and Knights Templar or better Kingdom of Jerusalem - because, as far as I know, the Knights Templar did not create their own state and the Kingdom of Jerusalem was dominated by the French so it can be called the Franconian Teutonic Order but in the Holy Land (not in Europe like TO).