European Natives for European maps

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
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Hallo guys, in this thread i wanna talk about the possible design and options for a future European DLCs minor factions. I wont directly include any of the major missing factions (Danes, Poles and Italians) or any of the existing factions but there might some that are aligned with those factions due to the nature of how densely populated Europe is with factions. this list is probably not going to be full or perfect and i would encourage people to come up with other ideas as well.

The way i see it the options for minor Civs in Europe can at be large be grouped into 3:

Nationalities, that otherwise dont really make sense as full factions

Ideologies, such as legitimist, republicans, nationalist etc.

Religion, such as catholic or protestant

here is my suggestions:

Jacobite’s, nationality and ideology.

The jacobites where an organisation of legitimist in the British isle that wanted the senior line of the house of Stuart to restoration of the British throne. Centered mostly in Scotland and Ireland they where eventually crushed by the British government.

Unit: Jacobite swordsman

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Maps: Scotland, Ireland and the British isle in general.

Republicans, Ideology.

People against the throne, you should already know that. more particularly based on the French revolution.

Unit: Citizens Militia

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Maps: Western European maps.

Scandinavian Volunteers/nationalist, ideology.

Based on esp Danish and Norwegian free shooter and volunteer regiments, but not part of the regular forces of the nation.

Units: Friskytte and Militia spearman.

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Maps: Scandinavia

but these are just my ideas so far, I’d love to hear you guys ideas esp for eastern Europe and Italian area.

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Had a similiar idea with adding movements like the englightenment. But i also like the WOL approach with different Village types: Farmers, Fisher, Mines instead of nationalities. I think its very difficult to add small civs in Europe without reusing mercenary units… Swiss would have their pikes, Hesse its Jäger etc.

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This game is about the colonization of the new worls by european power. This scope was later expended to include asian et african territories, as well as non-european civ (native american, asian and african civ). This game should not have european maps.

Several design (for example french courreur des bois for the french) make absolutely no sense outside of the new world.

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This game is about battles in the 17th and 18th centuries, not only about the colonies. Exapmle: Gustavus Adolfus and the Russians. Both Major civs in game (As well as Emperor Napolion) that conducted most of their battles 80% of them in Europe. We 100% need European maps.

Neither were there courreur des bois in Africa nor in Asia but the French Epmpire fought in both those theatres.

Please don’t try to speak for everyone when you say you don’t want added content, especially when you have no idea what you are talikg about.

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I always find stupid people saying “don’t try to speak for everyone”. I don’t understand how I could speak for other people… I’m not an elected or syndical reptesentative… Just one guy on a video game forum.

This game have always been about the new world colinization… I don’t know where you come from, but did you even play the game at its release more than 15 years ago? I understand why they expanded in asian (and now in africa) because it allows for very diferent civs, but it kind of move away from its root.

The CdB is a unit specially made for the new world (and I think it’s a very good design) because that’s what this game is all about… Everything from explorer, shipment… It’s just about colonies!

Honestly, you say that I have no idea what I’m talking about, but if you can’t understand the original design of this game (probably because you did not play it back then), there is not point arguing with you…

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People love to say “you have no idea what your talking about” because you don’t agree with them

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There are also ethnic groups that are disassociated with the countries they live in (and some exist today).

Like the Slavik groups, Gypsies etc.

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The entire Ottoman civilization makes no sense in the new world.

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I don’t know how people can “whatif” Ottomans into the Americas back in 2005, where the game (and its first expansion) at that time showed no signs of expanding outside Americas, but cannot accept “whatif”-ing everyone else into Europe.

Even Crusader Kings II, being a more serious historical game which mimics a lot of real medieval politics, military, etc., can “whatif” Aztecs into Europe.

Shipments maybe WAS designed for colonization, but it can be easily expanded (anyone wondering why all the native Americans and Asians and now Africans are also sending shipments from their home cities into their homelands? No?).
In the Peninsular Campaign of Napoleon Total War, the British need to build a trade port at given spots to receive shipments and enable the training of British troops, otherwise they have to do with local Spanish/Portuguese units. That’s how easily “shipments” can fit into an European map.

The only thing you need is to give people enough time so that they develop theories to justify such things.
If there is a 10 year gap between vanilla and TWC: No the shipment system is designed for colonists. Natives should not send shipments to their homeland. They do not fit into the theme.
If TAD: No the game is designed for the Americas. Courer de Bois was American-exclusive. All the old civs only have native American alliance cards. Asians do not fit into the theme.

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Once again, yet we still have the French fighting in Africa as well as Asia where CdB didn’t exist, thus this part of your argument is invalid.

I played the demo of Age of Kings… so yes I did play AoE3 the moment it was released. And I loved it, hense why I want more and more content added to expand the game. It baffels me when people say they don’t want new content because the beta never had it included in the first place thus it should never be included. All people whom have this issue have a clear and easy solution… just contuinue to play the original cd version that was released more than 15 years ago, there is the root that you so enjoy, no pesky unwanted content in there.
Then let us continue to support the devs by means of paying for new ,exciting content such as European maps. Thank you.

Ottomans ,Chinese, Indians, Huron, Siox, Aztechs, Sweden, Hausa, Ethiopia, none of them had colonies, thye had empires that they grew by means of battle, it might come as a shock to you but this game is called Age of Empires, not age of colonies.

I played the demo of Age of Kings… so yes I did play AoE3 the moment it was released.
You have no idea what you are talking about.

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i suppose, that is also why i ended up not adding swiss here because honestly i couldn’t see what unit to add since their famous unit already is in the game.

i had an idea for a german native unit being a “Shceutze” or something similar, but honestly i’d rather have such a unit in the actual german roster.

i must be honest i am not too familiar with WOL, how does the farmers/fishers/mines work? do they just give extra villagers?

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I don’t have the time to argue with an uneducated pedzouille like you, who finish all its comments by “You have no idea what you are talking about”. Honestly just look about the game in wikipedia and you will see its about discovery and colonization of the new world… I believe I have still the right to say on this forum I don’t want maps based on Europe… Although I will welcome other new contents (like additional european civs).

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1/- It’s easy for the Ottoman Empire to send a few ship to north america to establish a new colony in a huge continent mostly unpopulated. It’s more difficult to do the same thing in Europe. I still believe it’s dumb to have added ottoman to the game (while canceling at the last minute italian), but I guess it adds more variety to the game. The major difference with AoE2, it’s with the dark age and the grand migration of germanic tribes, it’s more or less credible to found a new kingdom anywhere. In 1500, its not credible.

2/- I hate this DLC, and I always turned it off while playing. One time it ruined my game… It’s more a meme thing than anything else.

3/- The analogy with the peninsular campaign of NTW is intresting. However in this game, you don 't build any city and only capture existing one. Plus, Spain was ravaged by war/rebellion.

4/- Personnaly I liked the orginial emphasis arround the war in the new world, between french british spain portuguese and dutch. I know that today the colonization of the world by the european power is less and less appealing for the majority of the people

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Lmao get off that high horse and stop being pretentious, mr’s inocybe.

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I’m pretentious for saying the word “pedzouille” ?

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But Ottomans didn’t “colonize” anywhere outside the old world.
In the mean time, it is not possible for the Aztecs or Incas or other native Americans to send a canoe and establish a colony in Asia, but TAD still exists.

On the other hand, Byzantium, Persia, China, etc. were large and well-established empires in the beginning of AOE2 and “dark age” did not even apply to them. They still need to build a small town.
East Asia and India in the time of AOE3 were also very well developed and densely populated. There is little place to found something like a new colony in those places. Most of the time they simply occupied a city or borrowed/seized some already-existing districts for special use.
In that sense you should not start with small towns like in the traditional AOE fashion. Similarly, most non-European civs in AOE2 should not start with a small town in the time period. But every game started with a small town anyway.
It’s just a base game concept that can be very easily fit into any setting, without inventing a whole theory to justify the design, because this is what most RTS is all about.

Like mentioned above, so did East Asia and India. There were mostly well established cities, not newly established “colonies”. But you still need to start with a small town as in every classic RTS.
And I don’t know how the state of Spain at that time is related to the design. So it also justifies introducing the “shipment” system to Germany in the Thirty Years War, or the entire Europe in Napoleon’s time?

It can be part of the theme, not the entire theme.
It does not hurt to expand the theme further, like they did with TAD (in which European civs can still only send American native allies, even up till now).

That actually reminds me of something: those native allies are still “sent” from your home city. Sending Cherokees from London to the Americas? That “theme” was not coherent in itself from the very beginning.

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you are welcome to have the opinion you dont want european maps but as far as i am concerned new DLC comes with new Maps, would be bizarre not to have that.

so with that in mind where would you find new maps for a european expansion? i mean i suppose there are some options like Greenland or microcarribia.

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I could see multiple ways to put European “natives” on the map.

Ideologies as you stated could be one. As some sort of mirror to the religious Asian natives, ofc religion could be used for Europeans as well.
They could also go with lesser states and city states, Bavaria, Saxony and Hannover for example for German natives. Florence, Milan, Venice for Italians. Transylvanians, Moldovia, Serbs in the Balkans. There are many options should they go that route.
Perhaps a simpler solution would be to use the Europeans that are actually in the game and make them “natives” on their own maps. So we get French natives on French maps, German natives on German maps etc. Getting native version of their special units and some unique themed techs.
Another option I once saw mentioned was instead of native sites EU maps could have mercenary camps. That would always contain certain mercenaries. A Swiss camp for Swiss Pikemen and a Hessian camp for Jaegers for example.
Im sure there are many other option I haven’t thought of. I can also see a absence of natives or something entirely new, the Devs are adding a lot of new stuff with the latest DLC’s. In a European DLC you would get somewhat more “boring” and standard new factions and they could go all out with new mechanics on the maps that go with the DLC instead. A whole new way to use natives perhaps?

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difficult to say, since this feature wasnt fully implemented last time i played WOL. I think they gave mostly economic bonuses and you could train a generic militia type unit. I’ll install it quick and post some screens later

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personally i feel like that just would be fairly uninteresting, why buy a high pop cost unit when you can just send the unit from HC or buy it in saloons/taverns.

like its not like its not an option, id just rather have something people are encouraged to use.

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