Although Fire Lancer is a “gunpowder unit” in terms of setting, But in fact, they are not gunpowder troops, and their charge attack is not increased by “chemical” technology（It is hoped that this will be corrected）.
The recent version of the Fire Lancer changes very strangely and directionless. If you continue to change this way, the Fire Lancer unit will either become featureless or ineffective.
So I suggest that, since the knight is relatively versatile (but expensive), and the rider is characterized by fast and anti long-range units (high remote defense), Fire Lancer should focus on attack. In addition to the existing anti building advantages at this stage, AOE attack should be further enhanced (this is too weak now). Of course, its durability and armor will be greatly reduced, and its speed is between the knight and the rider, It becomes a surprise unit that emphasizes H&R (basically equivalent to the cavalry shooter of CHINESE), but can be restrained by any unit（Whether it’s long-range shooting or melee）, and has little melee capability.
In my opinion they can delete completely fire lancer from the game.
It’s a lame unit, its only purpose is burn your base and kill groups of villagers with the charge.
In team games when you see a chineese just booming you know he will come with 50 fire lancers or 50 granadiers (now that grana got nerfed it’s always fire lancers), and if they get inside of your base rhey can burn the entire base in seconds. It’s ridiculous.
Grenadiers are dockshit rn and firelancers are shit too. Only reason why they work is either opponent is neglecting the base defense or walling. Either way both units have no viability. FL is more viable thanks to them being only units that can take down siege for china now so its better just throw wave of firelancers to siege and hope they get the kills
Fire lancers in 1v1 are not good but in team game they are good, 63 fire lancers can take down a 5000hp building in 4 seconds. Also in the new patch they will have +2 Pierce armor. They are units to take out in a team game, because they are worth it there, something similar to what happens with the mangudai.
### #### in 1v1, maybe 2v2, but not in 3v3 or 4v4, where maps are large and a player can boom and mass fire lancers more comfortable.
I’ve just played a game this week where a guy just boomed and massed fire lancers. I was getting control over map and recovered the sacred sites. My team was not helping so much, and that benefits the booming guy.
Then when I was getting more and more control, I saw the 60 FL mass getting to my base and burn it all in seconds, without time to react.
As I said is a lame unit, is bad for fight but you don’t need to fight if you can burn the entire base of your enemy.
This reminds me the older days when ppl threw so much of BS of FL. This made my day. Let me tell you old story about old FL and the only person who ever handed out replay and claiming how broken OP they’re.
I cant remember civs in 2v2 other than me as china and english, also note this was when maps were larger in 2v2 actually 3v3 size anyhow. Back then I played fast FC into Yuan with pro scouts. Essentially tactic was to snipe opponent down with FL and win game that way.
Did I do it this way? Yes lol. But guess what. The person who gave me the replay was like “look there was no time to react and nothing that could’ve been done” I pointed all the mistakes they did and they had over 1-2 mins to react FL threat and 4-5 mins to react what I was doing because it was scouted. I run through 5-6 english outposts to his base and he had 0 reaction and this took almost 1 minute. He still rallied all the units to my allies base while I was passing by. IF that doesn’t take the cake then how about that it took the english player 30seconds to react once I had arrived to his base and I already had burned down one landmark. So yeah. Players are 95% of the time fault and losing to something because their own incompetence
One I defeated english we went back and forth with opponent, but because my build wasn’t boom heavy I took heavy dmg to economy when he switched to me. In the end game lasted +40mins and I had stop making FL because how shit they were and are and back then they were actually good used with main army but in the end they fall short when opponent reacts properly.
Now so you’re going to tell me if I watch the replay of game you wont give to me, I wont find mass amount of mistakes that lead to FL winning the game? I can tell even without checking the replay that loss is due opponent ignored the threat of FL and lost because of it or maybe didn’t ignore but didnt act accordingly.
Back when FL were better, I lost against them about 5 times or less and all of them were my own fault and I demonstrated multiple times how I defeated FL using universal units like handcannoneers and lancers etc, but none of that matters because ppl want to put blame on units or game than on themselves which is insanely hard to do.
It can be lame unit but so what? Thats completely subjective matter. I see fresh food stuff lame too? Or english / french combo always doing same old ram all in and its been like that for year now and yet they never change. Its no different from HRE trying to go naked fast imperial or try to get relics without single unit then proceed to cry to their ally why didn’t help them secure relics.
I want firelancers to be useful with main army and now they’re just used as throw away unit to get buff and just run through to opponents base because they got no other use. Old ones at least had use outside of raiding now its just shitty raiding unit that is easy to counter also since the nerf I have faced FL multiple times and never I have lost to FL spam in 2v2.
That’s the point, there was no threat until it was too late.
4 versus 4 game, you know, people usually plays passive. On my team, I was the only one fighting the mid against 2 of them. 2 of my team were “doing barely nothing”, and the other one was fighting hard the top against one of them.
4v4 maps are large, and once everyone is in castle everything is too protected to just walk around with an scout.
I was walling our bases, but in these kind of maps (megarandom) it’s hard to wall all alone, so when I was getting control over sacred sites, I just see a mass of FL pointing to my base. He burned my castles, my unit buildings, and everything within seconds. He lost everything, but they are cheap and the time and cost of rebuilding all (me) it’s greater.
I am not saying they are OP, they are not. This would be as say English archers are OP just because I only play using spearmen.
They are not OP, but they don’t fit into the game. Why? Developers removed landmark elimination from team games, and nerfed tower rush. All of them, lame strategies. Typical strategy that “isn’t fun” and it’s hard to counter.
But then you realize FL exists, with its only purpose to do the same old knight snipping does BUT much faster and much cheaper. You don’t get eliminated, but getting your entire base burn is almost the same, you will need 10 minutes to recover and in this time you will lose.
Right now they do this pretty good and it is its only purpose, but they pretend to increase range armor… Why? To make them more viable in fights? People will not use them more in battles when they can use for the same thing it was used but even better, with more ranged armor.
Firelancers can do amazing or they do poorly. There is no balance how they do. They’re shit at fighting and only good for raiding and not viable to do them in castle unless opponent is sleeping. Too expensive to unlock and make.
Grenadiers are same. If you somehow get away getting 50 supply of them and opponent doesn’t react to them they can do well, but 95% of the time they’re just wasted supply and trash. Top of that they have no range and they cost 240 resources and do not pair with any unit other than themselves for the buff and unlocking them is way too expensive.
I tried unlocking FL in castle today while getting 3 relics to pagoda. In the end whole game ended in fiasco fest but managed to win after hour of getting beaten. Its not really viable plus they hit way too late in castle age to do anything anymore especially when they just don’t do enough building dmg
Firelancers wreck siege, buildings, and villagers. They definitely have a useful niche. Keep in mind China still has regular horsemen. The Firelancer is not just a horseman replacement, although you can mix it in with horsemen to add some AoE charges.
Yes, my allies were sleeping, but the same situation with other units, eg. a regular assault with siege, few knights, spears, etc… Gives allies more window to wake up and come help.
I know this game was not lost exclusively by the FL, but is a fact they can burn your entire base in seconds without time to manouver, this not happens with any other unit except massing knights, but they are slower, expensive, and not as effective versus buildings.
The point is, FL is lame unit, is unthinkable to make them viable to fight without tune down their ability to burn everything. Then you’ll have a unit good for fights, good for raiding, good to lanmark snipping, faster than knights and cheaper.
I am sorry, but if they raise range armor or other stats just to make them viable in fights, they will only get a FL that does the same exact thing that he was doing before, but tankier.
If they are into banning lame strats such as landmark snipping, tower rushing, etc… They will delete FL and granadiers from game and give China proper unique units that not only works when massed.
Then blame them not units. If they’re sleeping then you lose all your eco to horsemen or knights/lancers.
No they won’t if they get contested, but seems like you or your allies are not responding to them and letting them run freely.
So what if its lame unit? That has nothing to do with balance. Cool or lame are not related to balance in any form.
No they won’t be viable in fights. Rising range armor makes them better raiders because then they take less dmg from TC/keeps etc. They will still #### ### with main army and are waste of supply when fighting head on. They still lose all head on fights against any melee units not just spears but MAA, horsemen, knights/lancers so yeah.
Do you even freaking understand how much chinese unique units costs that other civs get FOR FREE?!?!?!!??! Zhuge nu 600 resources, Firelancers 1800 resources, grenadiers 3600 resource. Tell me one civilization that has to spent any extra resources to unlock their units?!?!??!?!?!?!?! There is none. You got no argument on that chinese unique units needs nerf etc, because they don’t. They need buff.
And players like you who moan about unit based on how cool or lame is reason in the first place why FL was demolished and same with grenadiers. These units are not balanced but under performing especially considering the cost of unit and unlocking them.
Then do you even know how much gold China loses every game in taxes? Let me tell you. While its tied to games length, but number is anywhere from thousands to tens of thousands. For example in game that I played today, all my granaries and 1 market held 6k gold in total that wasn’t possible to collect. Then needless to say all the other buildings which ramps the tax gold to tens of thousands. Yet what another civ just throws away gold like its nothing and cant use it? No other but China
Sure FL can stay as shitty as it is now, but then reduce the cost of making one by 50% and make all dynasties 50% cheaper. Then its fair deal and then we can start thinking if unit is good or not. Same with grenadiers either revert the nerfs or nerf the cost of training and unlocking by 50%.
I’d rather the developers change the Fire Lancer to be similar to the Sipahi, a cavalry focused on dealing with long-range infantry units, although this design doesn’t reflect what makes the Fire Lancer so special; the reason why the Fire Lancer is so hated by many players is because There is no other cavalry in the game that is good at dealing with buildings like him, so most players lack experience against him; once the Fire Lancer has gathered a considerable number, even if the players find it and start to act, they will Too late.
It’s not eco, villagers can run and you will keep your eco, it’s the whole base. They can burn a castle in 3-4 seconds, the town center, all your barracks, etc…
And what is contested? Asking my magic ball to know if someone in the other team will mass firelancers? And in the situation where I correct spot tons of stables to build them what’s the solution? Build the Minos laberynth in the map?
Castles don’t work, spears don’t work, etc… Nothing works but stone walls, that’s all. If they get in your base they will burn it all in seconds.
I don’t really have a problem with FL, they are a trash unit that only works in 3v3 or 4v4 games where people play sim city for 20 minutes. I just have a problem with strategies whose involves snipes or blobs of units running over the map evading fight, map control, etc…
If you can read again my last message, I say remove FL and granadiers and give China proper unique units who don’t just work when massed. Also, granadiers are trash right now with the last nerf.
But, if you have a look at granadiers or FL, you will notice that when they got buffed they are OP, and when they got nerfed they are trash, now ask yourself, why? Maybe the units in itself are bad designed and doesn’t fit with the rest of the game.
About the other, I am not going to enter again in an argue with a china guy who thinks that china is so weak and need tanks in imperial or nuclear weapons. China is one of the better civs in imperial, and if you don’t feel the same keep playing it.
Look, I can play this also: players like you, who only know how to win when they mass OP units like granadiers before the nerf or FL because they can’t maintain a good map control or play the rock-paper-scissor in which the whole game is built want granadiers back or FL to be tankier.
Also you are a good lier, you are not paying 600 resources to unlock just zhu ge, barbicane is one of the better tower rusher, and now with cannon and springald emplacement better, the other feudal landmark boost a lot the gold income in feudal or castle age, plus they give Song dinasty where China can boom like hell and evolve a very strong eco in less time than any other civ (just abbasid can reach china boom).
If your villagers are safe then you got way better chance of recovering than with dead villagers and currently FL splash is so minimal that it takes very specific situation where they actually kill meaningful amount of villagers in one go to be worth. One would be against Mongol because they like to stack all their food villagers under TC which is insanely juicy hit to get and instantly can delete all food eco.
If your infrastructure is down then you rebuild it. With 120-130 villagers thats easy task. Losing 50% of your villagers take far longer to recover than building 10-20 production buildings.
And there is your answer. Its players not the unit. You ask to nerf unit because players suck and thats absolutely not related to balance at all. This is now question if unit should be redesigned and if you go look for older threats where I said exactly same thing. Redesigning something is completely fine, but nerffing something based on if its fun or not is not, because its not balance then.
“proper unique units” You mean similar unique units to other civs with no uniqueness so they’re just universal? Grenadiers would be in decent spot if they had nerffed the dmg and left the range and not touch pyrotechnics but because they removed pyrotechnics affecting other gunpowder units other than HC and lowered the range to 3 tiles made them useless shit. They can’t be paired with any unit for the buff either.
They should’ve kept the range and left pyrotechnics untouched and lower the price of dynasties or grenadiers themselves, but because its trend to destroy Chinas identity one by one so all there is left useless dynasties paired with useless gunpowder. Well at least we can still be mediocore at expanding.
Bwahahahah. Yeah no they’re not. English is best at imperial then followed by Abbassid and most likely HRE. For Rus they’re just top tier. So where does China is? Oh middle of pack or lower tier. So sure. None of the things China use at imperial is unique to civ anymore other than FL. All they spam is universal units.
Also China has no imperial age anti siege weaponry and by this I dont mean culverin alone. Rus / Mongols got extra range for springalds, english got all around trebs with 16 tile range and rest civs got culverins outside of delhi which has elephants. So yeah.
I didn’t play with grenadiers or FL since they were nerffed. Why? Because I could end game in castle just spamming lancers. Even now I have been testing FL in castle / imperial and they’re hit or miss depending on opponent but overall they’re shit. Ill tell you secred. When FL got nerffed my highest mmr that I ever reached with castle age FL play was around 1600 and after I changed my playstyle to 1TC + Song into FC I climbed to 1790. So yeah.
“you liar” oh typical argument. Tell me. Can you make Zhuge nu during feudal without song dynasty? No you cant. Can you make FL during castle without yuan dynasty and losing song dynasty? No you cant. Can you make Grenadiers without losing song / yuan dynasty during imperial age without ming? No you cant.
So its not lie at all. China needs to spent 2x price of landmarks to gain similar bonuses that other civs get as baseline or directly from 1x landmark top of that other civs do not have to unlock their unique units by using extra resources.
Chinese boom is nowhere near some other civs. Yes they can boom but the training time is nowhere near similar to Abbasid that gets 50% off from villagers which is insane. 3x vill training costs only 75 food while china this is 150 food and china saves 100 resources from song dynasty vs 3x TC.
Rus can just buy 2nd TC no need to main stone and move villagers around.
HRE has swabia which is still most ridiculous imp age landmark and yet not nerffed to normal price like other civs.
Mongol trade boom is by far the best boom out there as of rn.
French just gets map control with knights and behind it can do what ever they want and got miniature song dynasty as BASELINE. Also French has strong trade boom which is especially insane for TG’s.
English best late game economy paired with TC as landmark not like chinese song dynasty that costs 1200 resources in total and provides only 0.5 worth of TC if there is no additional TC’s.
So yeah. “oh they can boom” fuckin every civ can boom and every civ has similar or better options than China. Chinas Boom is nothing but saving 150 resources vs 3TC play. So yeah and you’re not going to lose any game because of those 150 resources.
And you have to spend 3000 wood to put 20 production buildings, rebuild farms, rebuild landmarks, or build another TC because obviously you can run but you’ll not save all the villagers.
Conciously removed my last sentence, I will bold it now. And yes, there are some things about china that needs a second think, but you know, it’s hard to balance something that is that different from other civs. France or English are easy to balance, china not.
As I said, proper unique units, that don’t necesarily need to be same as other units from other civs. And yes, pyrotechnics not affecting nest of bees or bombard, for me, is an error, but we were talking about FL not about china overall.
China and rus handcannoners (streltsi) are the better. China one’s are like snipers and streltsi faster attack speed. In most of my games I mass handcannoners and maa or spears and you can beat almost everything.
China also beats HRE imperial so hard, nest of bees can shoot at 0 meters so they can deal with lands and MAA doesn’t stand a chance versus handcannoners with better range.
Only culverins can kill your siege but you have FL or regular horsemen to deal with siege.
Every civ got some extras, but china and abbasid got more. You are talking about unlock zhuge nu like it doesn’t give any perk.
I didn’t say it’s not true that you need Song to unlock Zhu, I just said it’s not true you pay 600 resources to unlock zhu, you pay 600 resources to unlock Song, and Song unlocks Zhu. Also you are not taking into account that having more landmarks in a game where landmark win is there is another advantage.
Bbq gives feudal china some interesant strategies, and the other one some gold income.
There is no convincing this guy… even though pro players, yes pro players are going for Fire Lancers in freaking tournament? ( you know those games that matter if u win or lose b/c this a lot of monnneeyyy?? to gain?) And this guy still suggesting the unit is USELESS…
I will agree with him that unlocking yuan dynasty WHILE IN CASTLE is an expensive and lackluster outcome! BBUT most pro players that unlock yuan dynasty do so in Imp where the cost is relatively CHEAP (7.5 knights worth) and the bonuses stack up.
The amount of none sense I had to read through on these forums start to reach all time peak. So why don’t you start thinking little bit before spouting numbers.
Do you understand how much it costs to make FL and unlock them?? No you don’t
20 production buildings = 3000
50 farms = 3750
20 houses = 1000
100 villagers = 5000
5 siege works shops = 1750
This is total of 14 500 resources now lets add 3k just as random resource hog so we at 17 500
Now lets look at stack of 100 FL.
100 FL = 16000
Unlock = 1800
Total of 17800
So your entire base is less valuable than 100x firelancers and you tell me that unit becomes too good if they gain ranged armor which they desperately need to fill their role, because they’re simply cost inefficient to used as raiding unit or siege sniper.
Chinas HC are better than they were before pyrotechnics change due having 0.7 tiles range but given how much China gave up on to get that 0.7 tiles range its trash. Top of that Streltsy is miles ahead of any HC. They’re cheaper, higher dmg, insane melee dmg. So yeah.
What makes you think that chinas boom is special? Its not. China doesn’t get boost on booming like Mongol, French, Abbasid,
Benefit of going song dynasty is with 2 TC vs 3TC 150 resources. And you tell me that no other civ can make 3TC than abbasid? Dude. Song dynasty is not magical yber boom. Just because china likes to go for multiple TC it doesn’t mean that its special. Other civs are exactly par with Chinas boom. If you want to see advantage because of Song Dynasty then we have to go for like 4-5 TC to even see any meaningful advantage and no one in right mind would go that many TC other than Abbasid because they can.