Come on buddy, this is simple.
I already expressed it at the beginning of the topic, 13 years ago there are people waiting for Japan to be just nerfed, there are people who left the game because of this, there were even tournaments where it was forbidden to use Japan for the mere fact that more than half of the players used and abused Japan.
It’s easy to use.
Sanctuaries boost the economy and prevent them from being raiding.
Explorers always escape.
Ashis are stronger than Musketeers and they are faster.
They have double shipments.
I could go on and on listing things to review and imbalances, but this would be eternal.
When the DE first came out, I thought the developers were already well aware of all this and that they just weren’t going to let it go, but I don’t know why they only slightly nerfed the Daimyo.
There are already too many people complaining about the same thing, and this has always been the case, Sweden and the Incas were hit harder for much less
Unfortunately, most players use Japan and that’s why they don’t want it to be nerfed, but come on folks, it’s been 13 years of stealing !!!
Yep, I agree this is simple.
The game is unifinished, there is too many things to fix, 1 month after the release the page 2 of the ladder is still not working.
They will not balance Japan now, and I do hope they fix other things before thinking of it.
People played 13 years with Japan and 15 years with otto on vanilla.
People won’t play 13 years with crash. That’s fact bro.
Btw, i don’t see that much on Japan on QS. And I don’t play them.
Yes, you are right, there are many things to fix, but the developers are working on it and over time they will be solving them, soon we will have a big update, my idea with this post if there is no time to review Japan, which is why Less is known that this issue exists and that it will be solved soon.
It is interesting that you say about QS, half of the players I played with in 1 vs 1 and 2 vs 2, were Japanese doing the same strategy over and over again, curiously many people say that the Dutch are very active but so far I have not seen any, maybe it is something regional because I come from South America.
I can agree with that, and I do hope too they will continu to work on the game after they fix all the bug.
But Japan is a bit controversial, esoc players looks thinking it’s a bad civ for 1v1. So they wouldn’t agree with a nerf.
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age up cost discount
This is ridiculous. All civilizations should be upgraded using fixed resources and no discount should be given, even if there are additional costs. In this game, where it’s important to do 2age up quickly, it’s a serious breach of balance to be able to do 2age up with less resources than the opponent. -
shrine cards and costs
By using the Portuguese alliance and the Heavenly Kami card, you get 1600 hp of infinite resource-producing buildings at 75w. There is much controversy over the production of resources in Japan. Japan can use this building to disrupt the food collection of the other party, and there is no need to put the villagers in danger, so that the high prices of the units are not a problem at all and can collect large numbers. -
Too Strong Ashigaru and Yumi
Ashigaru can quickly move to stop the enemy’s shrine attack because of its fast speed, Yumi has long range like to lb and japanese units all have their own upgrade cards. Although the cost is a little higher, it doesn’t matter at all if you build the shrain steadily. They are also strong against Japan’s 2age all-in-rush. Even their upgrades are cheaper than in Europe. -
Card can be used twice
This can be seen as a characteristic of civilization, but it’s too unfair to use a card twice. You can use a card that gives a small number of troops, but you have to use a card that gives a lot of troops only once. -
Exports
This is too powerful to be a bonus for an Asian country, and it is too big a bonus for countries that use exports to acquire little by little even if they set their resources at 0%. This should be a complement to the lack of civilization, not a bonus for much strength.
The text may not be smooth using a translator.
Japan is solid, but stating that they are broken don’t understand how to beat them.
If Japan need a to be nerfed for lower level games…I think maybe slight decrease on the shrine hp is the way to go
Swedes seem weak. Are they considered weak?
If this game is able to show the use percentage for civs, I can almost sure Japan will be the top higher than others.
Many eco updates, Many military updates, Safe turtle at home, etc.
Some guys always say an expert can always deal with Japan, Do these guys play team game? Do they know almost every game can see more than 1 Japan inside? Do they know this is difficult to follow their “METHOD” to deal with Japan in team game (Ex. send some pikes<not all civs has pikes and your several units will be always easy killed by their army/kill their heroes<I doubt that they don’t know Japan heroes can escape? even have 2!?)?
THIS GAME DON’T HAVE BALANCE IN TEAM GAME OK?
JAPAN in this game is an extreme BAD DESIGN, it creates many guys don’t need to care about their villager and just turtle at home without controlling the map and easy to beat the enemy. NO such RTS game can have this advantage, but this came from more than 10 years I think Devs are not going to change it anymore.
Well, in that I give you a point in favor, I do not consider myself the best player not even in my small community, but unfortunately I know many players much better than me who do the same thing and think that they also need a slight nerf, curiously my acquaintances main japan did not like the idea 19.
After reading all the opinions in the post, I would say that reducing the hp of the shrines, the speed of the ashi and removing at least the ability of the explorer to simply disappear, would be more than enough, and if this is not enough, too to be able to hunt the animals of the sanctuary.
As the OP says, I did quit playing the game several years ago specifically because I hate the Japan civ and I got tired of facing Ashigaru over and over and over again in 1v1. What he says is completely true. There doesn’t seem to be any downside at all to Japan, they gave them tons of advantages and extra strong units, what is the downside? I don’t get it. No way Japan is balanced at the level most people play. An obvious clue for this is look at how much Japan is played compared to other civs. If you see a discrepancy like this, good chance the civ is unbalanced. It is logic 101. “Attack them early” does not indicate a balanced civ at all.
no skirmishers, relatively poor art, lower potential for eco.
Powercreeping is a internet word that means the action of introducing or creating a new unit, card, or mechanic that does the same as a previous one but with added benefits, rendering the previous one outdated, and useless.
if this is not well balanced or limited you end up with something has no sense or place to be played again.
Yumi are better than skirmishers, why would they need or want skirmishers?
Flaming arrows own both enemy cannons and are good against the same stuff cannons are good against. I don’t see the downside.
Lower potential for eco: what? Are you kidding? They have the highest most op eco potential in the game with an unraidable economy and insane shrine booming which is really hard to stop. And they can keep all their villagers next to their tc as well. They don’t even need map control!! WTF. I don’t see any downsides that balance all of this OPness.
they are not better than skirmishers.
they cost wood
they do less dmg to enemy heavy infantry
flaming arrows are hot garbage compared to any european art, falcons do much better vs infantry and culvins are much better at killing art than they are.
in treaty Japans eco is on the lower side, sure they get to their max quicker than other civs and it’s hard to disrupt them but they bottomline is that other factions will overtake them in eco given enough time, to make it worse for japan then they need to send far more cards and get far more upgrades to make their paddies be good than europeans need for their mills and plantations.
If you compare the yumi with the skirm, the differences are that the first has a little less range and 20 less HP, but if we consider that the first is available in the second age and the other in fortresses and on top one costs wood and the another gold … well, it’s OP in comparison, and let’s not even talk about all the Japanese enhancements that can be added to it.
On the other hand, the Japanese eco boom is unanimously considered the most powerful, what’s more, there is a strategy created by the great H2O that is in rts-sanctuary, which combines the sanctuaries with the Dutch bank, if you know how to boome with Japan, you are unstoppable.
Until now, Japanese versatility could only be stopped with a faster rush, among the top players it was considered that the Haud (Iroquois) and the Hindus for their fairly fast rush, however, these civilizations changed considerably in DE and it was lost. certain advantage.
Otherwise, if the Japanese are allowed to grow, it is very difficult to beat them (from my point of view in both low and high games). And here is the question, the basic of this rts, is that the rush beats the ff, the ff the boom and the boom the rush, the Japanese boom is so versatile that it can easily beat both an archaic rush and a semi ff, that’s very sad.
And finally, don’t talk to me about treaties, we are talking about 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 2 competitive games, where the trend is clearly in favor of Japan.
Although Japan is not considered to be an OP civ by top players, It is still a game breaking civ for low or atleast average level players. It wouldn’t be just fair to tell them “git gud” which certainly requires years of experience or really good apm as the top players do. So instead, the game has to be balanced around so that the entire community is happy. The game applies a logic to all civs that you need to push out in the map and fight for resources at one point. Japan is a civ that just defies this logic. All other civs that have a house boom option works this way too (Maybe except Inca but their units do not scale as much as Japan’s units do, I guess). I am not suggesting to do anything with it since the game needs as much as diversity to make it more interesting, so tweak it. Make people think that this feature sounds fair. I respect all the nerfs that DE has implemented to Japan but i think these could be implemented as well:
So, it’s pretty obvious that the japanese monks are going to be all over the map, shrining. The only thing that’s annoying is the Smoke Bomb ability. You find those monks, you try to kill them and then they puff away. Just absurd. By default, Indian monks have a useable stun ability and a passive ability, Similarly chinese monk has a useable/active stun ability and 2 passive abilities which is even fair since passive abilities are based on chances. But Japanese monks can have 2 useable abilities and a passive ability? Seriously?
- Remove the Smoke Bomb ability entirely or increase their cooldown time drastically or atleast replace it with something like stealth (for a smaller LOS). This could potentially solve the problem. The monks die, The Japanese player has to send his vills to build those shrines and units to revive the fallen monks.
A unit that acts as a mobile barracks, stable and outpost (receives shipments) that also buffs attack of nearby units. I seriously doubt if anyone thinks that Daimyos need no change. They are easy to identify in the army unlike Indian mansabdar units and they can flee easily since they are cavs.
-Remove the shipment point access from Daimyo - People bothered that Chasqui were able to get shipment point and it was removed in a week. Even though it is for a different reason, It just sounds broken. Maybe let the Shogun alone to have the shipment point access since he can be only sent in age 4.
-Add a Hero tag to Daimyo but make them killable unlike explorers - So that spies can be put to good use in killing them.
(or)
-Reduce their speed
imo These are really small nerfs and still the civ is decent.
I agree that shrine-play needs a nerf. They pay off too quickly, and they take too long to remove. HP nerf would probably do the trick. Increasing smokebomb cooldown might be a reasonable way to nerf this as well.
I think that Daimyos need no change. The problematic auras have already been nerfed, and 1 shipment is actually a pretty hefty cost for a single unit that can be sniped quickly by a decent mass of ranged cav. 1 shipment is worth 600 res for japan, which could be a barracks and castle for building units and shipment point respectively. Access to Daimyo/Shogun is a unique trait of Japan that characterize the civilization. It’s okay that these shipments are above average.
I don’t think adding a hero tag is going to change much, but I do like the flavor. If they do have a hero tag, they should also detect stealth though.
I don’t like the idea of reducing their speed. They already have to stand still to train units, their speed is lower than regular cav, they can be snared, and regular anti-cav has all the same bonuses against them that are designed to quickly punish fast-moving units.
The problem is they can build so quickly (also remove take too long will be a problem)
They have two heroes build everywhere and smokebomb escape, become very safe boom.
Their vils are almost never get raided, that makes eco will be very low chance to get interrupted.
If nothing to do with the booming speed, they will keep the same OP, also same logic to Sweden/Dutch.
If lower their military quality, they will become weak in 1v1.
Well that wouldn’t be much of a problem for Japan since they generate that much XP by building shrines and also they enjoy sending same shipments twice.
I think they added a separate ‘Sees Stealth’ tag for the units that are able to detect stealth. Maybe don’t give that to Daimyos?
Well my point is, They don’t have to stand still to receive shipments. And they can cancel the unit queue when they are training them and still run away. They have the same speed as lancers? I think it’s good enough. I am telling this because I have constantly had problems in the past with Daimyos. For example, I did a xbow pike semi FF as france against a guy, I delayed his barracks and was able to kill 2 vills and then let them siege shrines and aged, I switched to Musk and falcs (and few skirms). The japanese player stayed in his base and followed up to age 3. He tried to defend his shrines. He had a decent mass of age 2 ashi and yumi with a Daimyo behind. I was certainly winning that fight. I knew he was gonna send flaming arrows at one point so I had 5 goons shipment on the way and was also training cuirassiers. Guess what? He trained 5 nagis and sent 2 flaming arrows from his Daimyo at the same time and then I lost the fight entirely. Well, only if I had a mobile outpost that could have shipped that 5 goons in the middle of the map at that moment. He was able to get his shrines back up, I ran out of hunts. It is only my opinion and I am certainly not a good player, I think I could have played it better.