it’s really not the most powerful, it’s the easiest and hardest to stop but objectively speaking if all you do is boom then iroqoui or germany are the factions you should look at.
Japan at 40 usually dont even reach 2000 score, there exist factions that can litterally get to 3000 score, and most factions are about 2000-2400 score. japans max eco is low tier, around the same as dutch, not the worst but certainly not in the top half either.
i was only doing that because it shows the actual potential which you seem very convinced is the best.
but here is the thing, good supremacy players don’t think japan is OP, so maybe listen to them idk.
Well, in fact I take them into account, but I disagree a lot with what that minority of players says, because as much as you and me, they are not the owners of the truth, much less.
The reality is how they occur in this topic, in this forum, and in a few others, most of the players think that Japan is simply broken, but as another colleague said above, there is a certain favoritism for Japan and therefore not consensus was never reached.
This case is very similar to the bug to easily obtain treasures by taking advantage of a flaw in the treasure guards by not defending themselves, this bug has existed since the beginning of time and has not yet been fixed, because nobody has complained and I think nobody in their right mind they would ask to fix it because it is very OP, but in itself, it is a flaw that perhaps the developers decided to ignore because people do not seem to bother, the same happens with Japan, they are broken but many do not seem to care or do not want to accept it .
I dont think Japan is that op!!
But maybe if it really needs a nerf one solution could be to change one of the starting wood crates for a food or coin crate as it would make their build significantly slower!!
Japaneses are fine but i must say that the only nerf they need is just to take off the ability to teleport back to TC. In that way you can counter that they take control of the whole map and that they steal your herds by just killing them.
Please guys, I need arguments why you consider that Japan is not broken, is nobody able to explain it to me?
The same text but in spanish 21
Por favor muchachos, necesito argumentos de porque consideran que Japón no esta roto, acaso nadie es capaz de explicármelo?
Japón es fuerte, pero solo esta roto si le dejas hacer lo que le da la gana!!
Japón es extremamente lento y vulnerable al comienzo y tiene que elegir entre hacer santuarios o sacar unidades para defender!!
Asi que al comienzo del juego tienes mucha oportunidad de hacerles daño y controlar el mapa y en fortalezas si puedes sacar bastantes cañones les hace la vida imposible ya que no tienen culebrinas y las flechas incendiarias aunque tienen un poco más distancia necesita 3 disparos para matar a un cañón mientras que el cañon solo necesita 2
Japón también se le hace difícil jugar contra civs de FF que pueden sacar varias unidades temprano en fortalezas!!
Civs como España yOtomanos que te atacan con un ejército enorme+cañones a los 8 minutos le hacen la cosa bien dificil a japon
Y luego esta Alemania(Alemania si que es OP) ya tienen un timing super fuerte a comienzos de fortalezas y no veo como Japón puede ganarles!!
JA! Sabia que hablabas español 19
Cualquier civi que se le deje hacer lo que se le da la gana es muy poderosa, pero supongamos un escenario donde uno va a ff o semi ff contra un Japón.
En mi experiencia personal, Japón tiene un buen timming para poder sacar ashigarus y pushear con los mismos, y al mismo tiempo poder construir santuarios por el mapa para el boom, es la estrategia básica japonesa, inclusive esta tan desarrollado que existen guías que te dicen en que momento preciso hay que pedir ciertos envíos, el ashi es perfecto para el push porque tiene mas velocidad que un musk normal y puede salir y entrar rápidamente, en el video de aussie que pase mas arriba se puede apreciar que al británico le cuesta mucho defenderse con sus musk, al mismo tiempo esta intentando llegar a fortalezas pero el japonés no lo deja por el push, y lo peor de todo es que a aussie no le cuesta seguir construyendo santuarios y a los 8 min tiene suficiente eco para sacar ashis de a 10, esto es realmente muy OP. Cuando el británico llega a fortalezas el simplemente ataca el TC porque sabe que en cualquier momento llegan esos 2 falconetes y por si acaso envía al daimio, pero tal y como lo dice el, es tarde, el ashi ya se encargo de todo y es gg, eso siempre me ha pasado y es realmente muy difícil de contrarrestar, los xbows la tienen difícil debido a que el ashi al ser mas veloz pueden interceptarlos fácilmente, lamentablemente la opción mas ideal para contrarrestar es si o si ir a fortalezas, pero en el 90% de los casos, el japo ataca tu base con todo lo que tiene y ya no hay cañones ni skirm que valgan.
Por otra parte, tienes razón sobre la artillería japonesa y el lategame, Japón al igual que las demás civis asiáticas necesita un buff de artillería, y por otra parte algún instrumento para no quedarse atrás en lategame, yo permitiría que el japonés pueda entrenar ganado en los santuarios en industrial y buff la artillería, y claro, nerfearia los ashis y la protección de los animales o los hp del santuario.
Statistically, Japan’s win rate was 50.2% on re patch.Probably Japan is annoying civ and feels stronger than it really is because there are so many people using it.
Japan nerf hard and Europe civ become buff,so I think the win rate is less than 50%
Since it is a competitive game,I would like To be able to see the percentage of wins by civilization.
En el video de aussie el britanico cometio un gran error en intentar hacer ff contra japon, ya que no tienen opcion de subir a fortalezas rapida!! Si el britanico es agresivo Japón esta en problemas porque puede sacar unidades mas rapido temprano mientras su candidad de aldeanos aumenta!!
Pero si que es verdad que quizas Japón ahora mismo este un poco más fuerte de lo deberia y un nerfeo le vendria bien!!
Yo creo que si le cambiases una de sus cajas de maderas por alimentos o monedas al comienzo del juego para que no pueda sacarse el consulado y el santuario tan facilmente le haria Japón mas lento y asi aumentaria la ventana de oportunidad que otras civs tienen para hacerles daño
You can’t only take the winrate to determine if this civ is OP or not…
1 pro and 10 noobs using this civ.
Pro win 10 lose 1
Noob win 1 lose 10
What is the winrate.
*This is the extreme situation.
I don’t agree only pro can discuss balance but at least they should have med level knows the figures well.
Now in the server full of Japan and Sweden sure this is a problem, and many of these guys are too noob even they still staying age1 for milling at 10 mins
Noobs will low down the winrate when facing a higher level.
They take less control, more improvement, quicker and powerful booming, etc.
Again and again.
Re patch Iroquois and India were the most winnable civilizations. There were 56%. Re patch Spain and Dutch were the lowest winning civilizations.
Perhaps you will agree with these stats sensibly.
As u say, statistics can sometimes be misleading.
But emotions also sometimes be misleading.
I agree with vs Japan it’s so annoying and not fun. Many players also feel like the same way. The illusion of being stronger than you actually are when you lose.
Statistics are sometimes misleading, but they are at least more accurate than personal opinion.
In my personal opinion(my rate is around 1550), take map control and seizing all shrine Japan can’t outboom many civ. And Japan have many counter civs like Otto, Russia, Aztec ,India, Inca, China. And some good players say brits and Germany also good vs Japan.
Japan is not that op and their winrate on EP seem ok.
This is the winrate and the average PR in addition for each civ. Exemple : aztek have 55% of winrate but the aztek player has +0.6 more PR than is opponent.
Those date come from EP elo from 2017 to 2020 and only PR 28+
Japan have 51% winrate but 0.3 more PR than theirs opponents. Ofc this data don’t take in consideration the current balance but i am not sure japan was clearly better now.
That is interesting data, we definitely could use something like that on DE
One thing we can consider is how during most of EP time fixed crates were not a thing.
Now with the 300w start Japan has a much more easier and faster start now and it could have made it harder for many civs to punish their shrine boom.
Well, I would like to return to the discussion of this topic. I have faced several Japs this last time, and the truth is that it is still extremely difficult to beat them, in this last game I decided to follow the advice of many colleagues who posted on this topic, and although they really help, there is nothing to do against him, ashigaru and shrine spam, I got tired of killing the monks so that they would circulate again soon after, besides, it is very difficult to destroy shrines with pikemen without ashigarus arriving quickly to protect them, it is incredible that a rush as fast the archaic German, it costs almost nothing for the Japanese to repel him.
And yes, I know that my micro leaves a lot to be desired, but I did what I could.
I keep insisting that you reduce the hp of the shrines, remove the monk’s escape ability, and nerf at least the speed of the ashigaru, this is already frustrating.
Perfect example for this is Aztec. Look at Skull Knights and Jaguar Knights. These units are constantly being brought up as useless units. Why is that? Simply look at their stats. Skull Knights have an atrocious 4.00 movement speed, which means they get kited by every single ranged unit in the game. If the Aztec opponent researched 10% infantry speed from Arsenal, Skull Knights will never attack any ranged unit again. They also have 0 ranged resist and only melee resist, which means they get destroyed by Skirmishers.
Now look at a similar unit, the Urumi. The Urumi has 4.50 speed, already better. But even more importantly, the Urumi has 30% ranged resist, which allows it to tank Skirmisher shots and defeat them in close combat. The Urumi is what the Skull Knight should have been. Its exactly the same role, but due to powercreep, the Indian civ, which got released later, has a great unit. Meanwhile, the Skull Knight is trash.
Another great example, very similar: The Jaguar Knight. They are also considered useless. They have 4.50 speed, but 0 ranged resist so they get destroyed just like Skull Knights by Skirmishers. Their melee resist is also only .10, which is low for a melee unit.
The usual army consists of Lots of Skirmishers or Skirmisher-Type units like Longbows/Yumi backed up by artillery. Both Skull Knights and Jaguar Knights have no reason to be used against this army. They are powerful anti-cavalry. But why would Aztec need anti-Cavalry? They already have Eagle Runner Knights and they have no artillery they need to protect. Their Skirmisher also only has 16 range (18 in Age III with temple card).
Another hilarious example: Compare Aztec and Inca.
Inca get 2 War Huts from Age I to Age II. Aztec get only 1.
Inca get endless 1200 wood shipment in Age IV, Aztec get only endless 1000 coin Shipment in Age IV.
They require too little effort to almost always be at am optimal level. Playing perfectly with Germans, most other civs, requires you pull off complex strategies and timings very optimally. Japan…build some shrines sit in your base, and farm and you can win well above what your rank says you should be able to.
This thread says a lot about the current state of Japan to be fair. It seems to be the most hated civ in the game and even top players have different opinions about it.
I personally don’t have much of a problem with this civ but I understand why most people do.
If the civ really needs a nerf I would probably argue that changing the crate start by replacing one of the wood crates for a food crate would be enough, as it will significantly weaken japan’s early game by making them choose between having the consulate early or delaying the shrine boom by aging up on a good time.
Other civs will have a larger window to hurt japan as a result of that.
Its not like they don’t have other options against rushes as builds such as the Japanese consulate start will be a lot more viable again.
Japan and many other civs just need new options. The entirety of the problem is that many civs only have one viable strategy, and it either works or it doesn’t. Japan’s go-to strategy just has fewer weaknesses than some of the others, and when it’s strong, it’s strong. If Japan had any other actually viable options other than shrine booming, then shrine booming could be nerfed fairly.
