Frank HP bonus needs a buff

AT THE EXPENSE OF FRANK ECO BONUSES.
Like seriously, this bonus feels like utter crap sometimes. It only helps the knight line since its basically a free bloodlines. Knights still have the same hp as other cavalry civs who can field equal or better cav (teutons armor, magyar free blacksmith, sicilian dmg redux, lith relics etc). Not only, it forces franks to go exclusively for knights, since the bonus is worse than bloodlines for units that have less than 100hp, (scout and CA line). The cavalier ‘‘bonus’’ is laughable. A mere 4 extra HP. BIG WOOP. Even paladins aren’t that impressive. 12 more hp. Wow. I’m so scared of French knights now.
I really think this bonus needs a buff/rework, and while I understand that Franks are in a good spot these days, its exclusively because of their eco bonuses and easy style. I say nerf those, and give us actual fearsome cavalry that can more than match those of other civs.

My suggestion is that we give franks bloodlines, while the hp bonus should only apply in the imperial age. This way, their early castle age aggression that’s fueled by their noobfarms/berries/free 150food100gold is limited somewhat, while their lategame viability is buffed considerably. According to AOESTATS, and my own personal experience, Franks enjoy great winrates in relatively short games while they suffer a massive dip in performance going into the lategame, and I believe such a change would be FRANKLY appropriate (sorry, Imma see myself out)

PS: 1550Elo here

EDIT for clarification: Not saying we give them FREE bloodlines, but force them to PAY for it.

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If HP is buffed more, chivalry might need a rework for team games though, regardless of any eco nerf.

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Whilst in 1v1 i am actually generally with you that Franks would be better with less eco bonusses but slightly better HP Bonus (Not a whole Bloodlines, that is absurd). I think Franks have the Identity of having the best cav in the game.
But actually they have a lot of other things going for them besides that:
Good Eco
Super Cheap Castles
Strong UU that perfectly fits with the civ
Quite Versatile Tech Tree for such a “specialised” civ
So, maybe it’s just too much all together? I would like to reduce their eco in favor of making them the undisputedly best heavy cav civ again.

In TGs it is more complicated. The fact that Franks not only have that strong Eco but also the strongest Paladins (even if it is close) makes them extremely powerful there, and making their Paladins even stronger would possibly make them the most OP pocket civ even if their eco would be nerfed. Because scaling is so insanely important in TGs. Even just giving frank Palas 5 % more HP (192 => 200) could make them instantely regarded as “completely OP”.

That could possibly work. Maybe Chivalry needs to be removed entirely (or give the mentioned +5 % HP instead).

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Thing is, Franks in teamgames 1250elo and above aren’t all that either (accoring to aoestats again). 20 more hp is NOTHING to an army of halbs that deal 42dmg per hit anyway. If anything, the bonus itself could be tweaked to 5% or 10% like mentioned. Other civs like huns have faster stables as well, and no one sings their praises in teamgames.

What I’m reading lol, just omega ultra lol :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Yes go buff Franks, civ with one of the highest pickrate and winrate in TGs on all ELO lets go, but 22 attack Lithuanian paladin needed a nerf with, by a larger margin, with less pickrate.
Gonna be objective here, Franks need a major nerf, they are just boring to face in TGs lol, I will repeat, change 40% faster working stables from chivalry to Fallen Knights returning 33% of the gold cost, and move the HP bonus to castle age.

PSA: pls don’t become into other Equalizer that, using the ELO, made balance suggestions with zero sense 11

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Maybe go analyse the stats yourself then. If you have problems comprehending the post, I suggest you read it again. My suggestion actually NERFS their early game while their lategame becomes respectable again.

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well see the title, Franks HP bonus need a buff :man_shrugging: so, while like in almost every site all agree that Franks need a nerf, and a serious one.
Also, reading the post, lol, great early economy with bloodlines Scouts, Franks feudal age is already scary with the free extra HP that Frankish scouts get (they in fact take one extra hit from spears, that’s pretty major).
Also yes, 200 HP paladins being spammed 40% faster… 192 HP paladins that can tank one extra hit from halbs (again huge bonus, compare to Teutons, they lack Husbandry to offset the extra melee armor) being spammed 40% faster is already broken, let’s go and give the same HP that elephant units start to get…
And wtf is this zealotry towards Franks and that they must have the strongest paladins, IMO Franks are overrated and boring to play as and against, 192 HP paladin is already strong and they DON’T need 40% extra creation speed

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The title, I admit, is to draw views, and increase the chances of actual discoure :smiley:.
Frank scout rush would be nerfed if you move the bonus to imperial and make them pay for bloodlines in feudal age. Thats a whopping 150food and 100gold, which is worth 3 scouts already. I’d rather have 6 54hp frank scouts than 3 65hp ones… Magyars scout rushes scare me waaay more. Cheaper, with free smithy upgrades for efficient villager genocide.
Frank are strong in early game because their knights get a freebie bloodlines, but thats just about it. HP doesnt play that much of a role in this game. BTW vietnamese elephants got a 20hp buff recently. And no one is crying about how OP they are now, even in TG. A 216 hp Frank paladin wouldnt shift the tides of battle that much either. Would still probably lose to Lithuanian or Teut paladins anyway :slight_smile:

Please read the suggestion PROPERLY. A sizable nerf early game for a considerable buff lategame thats supported by the stats.

I am a against. Paladins are Pop efficient enough, and this makes matters worse for teamgane balance lategane

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Lets go and compare an unit that’s slower by a large magnitude, also lacks BF, plus being also countered hard by Monks, and I guess you didn’t ever read what you claim (and you say that I need to read properly…) but the HP buff of Chatras wasn’t buffed by +20HP, was by another +50 HP, so you end with the tech giving you 100 HP for battle elephants, and you need a castle and the res to get the benefit, plus vietnamese eco isn’t even comparable.

Lithuanian paladins and Teutonic paladin beat Frankish paladins (the first one with all 4 relics), but 216HP paladins not only beat both lol, they would go cost effectively vs battle elephants and camels, and being completely uncounterable by halbs, at that point the only unit they couldn’t beat would be the Elite War elephant (Because even the Elite Leitis won’t beat them). And yea, no drawbacks for such benefit.

Following you logic then go ahead and give Bulgarians paladin back because they aren’t even close to be strong in TG, 33% fast attacking cavaliers aren’t amazing and Bulgarians lack eco bonus, why not, also you need to pay 400F 200G 11.

Oh and let’s go and do apples to oranges, Magyars have really good scout rush but guess what they lack… something called ECO BONUS.

BTW compare the frankish paladin with this unit from AOE 3 lets see what they have in common:

Both are heavy cavalry, both are created from stables, both have high HP and attack, and belong to civs with super ecos, guess what happened to the Cuirassier when 3 DE came out.

And to add more: Aoestats is outdated by a large time, I will ping you @ElizaKolmakov so you have fun reading this and show the OP the current stats and how Franks are abused 11

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Does it HAVE to be a huge bonus tho? Some bonuses are small, others are bigger, that looks quite normal to me. Same for the winrate point, some civs are better than others at various times of the game, nothing unusual here.

I don’t know why you keep making this comparison, cuirassiers also have trample damage, much better stats than the standard cavalry unit, and were trained instantly rather than just 40% faster, on top of belonging to a civ that has more pop space. And they were only OP in treaty mode (which is almost not used in AoE2) because you pretty much need a super long untouched boom to sustain a unit that is trained instantly yet costs half an elephant’s price. So the comparison is pretty bad.

I think my main comparison is the training time, heavy cavalry spam shouldn’t be a thing, and for AOE 3 Post Imperial Gendarmes wasn’t only on treaty, in TGs the spam was broken as well, so that makes me wonder, why Frankish paladins are trained 40% faster without any drawback when they already have 192 HP, which is good, plus +2 LOS (without mentioning the strong eco that Franks build up early), when Teutons lack husbandry to offset the extra melee armor (while also being better in melee combat) and recently Lithuanians lacking blast furnace to offset the relic bonus, plus Berbers, Bulgarians, Malians, Sicilians and Poles, all lacking paladin and other techs to offset such strong bonuses or UTs? (with the Sicilian cavaliers being broken as well too)
Did I even botter to mention that Cumans at release had 10% faster paladins and husbandry on top of that? What happened? Cumans lost husbandry but the extra speed is now just 5% more over others.

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Don’t bother to ever bring up ELO because there are already proofs on how people do ridiculous balance suggestions yet are higher elo players.

If you fail to see again what are the main drawbacks that elephants get then is not me

Oh nice then the balanced 216HP paladins are balanced, yet have you measured the perfomace vs other units (Camels, arbalest…)?

You are right, you explicity mentioned Empire Wars, a gamemode different from random map, where the Magyar bonuses kcik really quickly and gives you such a lead, hell even Bulgarians are really powerful here and is because of the blacksmith bonuses too, yet this civ doesn’t perform well on RM 1v1 or even strong on TGs

Again you 11, if you fail to see why I compared both units (when I specifically mentioned in what aspect I complain) then you are the one that don’t want to read well lol.

Ok so you want stats here we go:
image
1v1 all ELO
image
TG all ELO
If we break up by ELO ranges the differences are minimal, but yes you are right, Franks winrate goes down below 50% in more than 30 mins… but guess why??

Because the absurd eco bonuses AND extra HP on scouts leads to get even a 56% WR by the mark of 20-30 Mins (in +1650 ELO this even goes far to 58% WR) while in TGs they still keep around 52% WR, if we see aggresive maps like arabia, this essentially leads to win before Imp, if is that, then why they need 40% faster working stables AND 216 HP paladins? to win even harder?? ROFL, and thats without seeing the pickrate…
So yea, if you still insist to use outdated data, then that data more than back up that Franks don’t need such absurd buff, and if you read my suggestion well, that actually adresses such supremacy that early and at the same time helps then after 30 mins. Have a nice day.

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Because you’re relying on outdated data. Aoestats hasn’t been updated in 3 months.

Yes, they have no FU unit in imp besides Infantry.

Literally why. You can go play your franks in 1v1 Ara and TG in the same way I play Spanish in my Diplomacy games. Different civs, different strengths. They aren’t supposed to dominate in every single age. Besides what’s the point of making the a generic civ with generic cav and eco in all stages except imp.

Ok? 1600 elo here and your suggestions are bad.

It is 20% already. And what’s your point? Halbs ARE supposed to counter cavalry. I don’t care if it’s an elephant or a cataphract or if it shoots lasers from its eyes, if it has more than 2 legs under it, it has to get countered by halbs.

Same lmao. Almost like the “give Turks 15 range Houfnices” guy.

Current Frank Palas trade precisely 1 on 1 vs teuton palas. Jesus Christ, with 216 HP as @FurtherLime7936 mentioned they would trade against halbs, camels and elephants too. While being a lot faster than a war ele.

I have said things that can come across as dismissive to lower rated players, but this is straight up ad hominem and I would ban you for interacting with our fellow players in such a way. I don’t care if they are 800 elo or 2k elo, everyone has the right to their take on balance and is why for example Goths aren’t getting buffed while they should be- because lower rated players struggle against them. The game isn’t balanced for the Viper vs Hera finals of the tournaments, it’s balanced for everyone. And it’s not like you are high enough on the ladder to consider yourself any better than the rest here. Get to 2k and we might talk.

Can’t be bothered to read more. See yourself out with your clickbait borderline insult to civilization identity and balance thread. Maybe they should also get trained 40% faster by default and Chivalry gives them 100% splash damage. And bearded axe makes them throw the sword forward at 5 range like a mameluke. In exchange we can remove the barracks and the archery range from the tech tree of Franks to avoid misclicks and people maybe thinking the civ isn’t designed around spamming the quite frankly best unit in the current TG meta, arguably lagging behind castle age WWs a bit perhaps, but still.

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Not sure why people love to pull the ELO card during argument. OP, if you are 1550 ELO, I am 1900ELO 1v1 and 2500ELO TG and I think your suggestions are terrible.

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+4 HP on FU Cavalier enables them to survive an additional hit from FU Arbs and rival FU Cavaliers
Cavalier: 140/16-5 = 12.7272 (13 Hits), 144/16-5 = 13.0909 (14 Hits),
Arb: 144/10-6 = 36 Hits, 140/10-6 = 35 Hits

+12 HP on Paladin enables them to survive an additional hit from rival FU Paladin, Halberdiers, 3 additional hits from an Arbalester
Paladin: 192/18-5 = 14.7692 (15 Hits), 180/18-5 = 13.8461 (14 Hits)
Halberdier: 192/(10-5)+32 (6 Hits), 180(10-5)+32 (5 Hits)
Arbalester: 192/10-6 = 48 Hits, 180/10-6 = 45 Hits

There is doubtless some other relevant calculations I’ve missed, regardless this is really big given that Franks get this all completely for free and additionally have: +2 LOS for their Knights, A UT that gives them +40% faster training and research time, exceptional eco pre-Post Imp, do not lack any key upgrades for their Knights (Unlike Teutons), etc could go on.

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You want to buff one of the strongest civs in the game even more? With a cool farm bonus, berry bonus, and the Chivalry tech to help them spam out high HP knights already.

You got to be joking? Franks’ Cavalry is quite frankly awesome the way it is. Literally no changes are needed. Sure, they may have weak horse units outside of Knights, but that’s part of their identity, and gives them some degree of weakness.

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Which is why they rely too heavily on the knight line

Man, are you another one of those who fail to read the suggestion properly? Its a package deal. Tweaking Franks ridiculous early game powerspike by forcing them to shell out 150f/100g which would otherwise be spent on vills, smith upgrades, (the upgrade time itself is no joke), will ensure the CIV is more balanced regardless of ELO.

ONLY FOR CASTLE AGE KNIGHTS. 100hp + 20% = 100 +20hp. Cavaliers and Paladins with 4 and 12 more hp respectively is nothing to be proud of.

Yeah, funny. Almost like the other dude who suggested barracks train UU infantry. Have fun with barracks TKs, Jags, Samurai, Kamayuks running around.

Incorrect. Current teuton palas take 2 more hits for Frank Palas to beat. Also, teutons are primarily an infantry and defensive civ. Also, 216hp paladins trade absolutely the same with halberdiers. Cant fight the math dude. Franks have nothing but CAV if they are to be viable. They NEED to trade with camels, elephants.

I’m not taking yours or anyones right to speak of balance regardless of ELO, but I WILL exercise my freedom NOT to engage with those below my elo. I cant force you to shutup, you cant force me to speak to you mmmkay?

Yes, proposing to have frank cavalry viable in late game scenarios is clearly an insult to their civilisation identity. If you can’t be bothered to read more, then get out yourself buddy. Dont go telling others to leave.

Then I would love to hear why. Nerfing Frank early game domination MASSIVELY, while buffing their late game.

  • Most games in 1v1 are decided before imp. If you plug their hp bonus out, Franks become nearly worse version of Slavs (actually a much worse version of Mongols).

  • Paladins are expensive, and only a few 1v1 games ever reaches paladin. +20% imp is not the most useful bonus in 1v1.

  • 216 hp paladins are terrible to be countered in Arabia / “Ordinary map” TG. You put up halbs as example, but you never want to put halbs in 4v4 game because they lack mobility, and paladins usually act as arrow absorber anyway

  • For non ordinary TG, do you really need to nerf Franks, which are not strong at early game?