Because they were OP. The old Iroquois was absurdly op in TWC and TAD. The old Aztecs and Sioux were also borderline OP.
Of course cOmPeTitIvE players only play whatever gives them wins. But wouldn’t that be bad balancing from the CoMpEtIvE perspective?
Stupid question but why not give the Lakota mounted villagers?
Why not try improving both at the same time?
If something is not fun (and therefor not popular) then why not try find something that is both more authentic and also more fun.
Historical accuracy is always important because you want to feel like you play a certain civilisation and not just a random selections of bonuses, else you would play a fantasy game.
Naja das sind schlechte Argumente bzw stellst du dich naiv
Du weißt genauso gut, dass der Klan eine noch heute agierende politische und klar rassistische Gruppierung mit offenen Gerichtsverfahren ist. Jede Assoziation zwischen Microsoft und den klan wäre absolut geschäftsschädigend
Neben dem boykott des Spiels durch die Konsumenten, würde es btw auch in einigen Ländern (z.b. Deutschland) sofort indiziert werden
Edit:
…und das ist kein Beispiel für cancel culture, sondern einfach das Grundgesetz
I explored that idea, but frankly, it’s difficult, if not impossible, to implement without also having 2-pop villagers as a baseline for the civ.
While that’s not a bad direction, it means that the civ would ultimately only need to achieve about 45-50 villagers to be on-par with other civs, which could be reached at an absurd speed due to the Lakota need to hunt at an incredible rate.
The villagers would need to cost something like 225 food apiece just to balance it.
It could be done, and frankly, I don’t think there’s a better civ to explore the concept with than with the Lakota, but it would be hard - it would, incidentally, coincide very well with my concept of the unique Lakota villager, the Khuwa, which is intended to inherently have a higher attack, hunting rate, and wood gather rate, but a less-than-ideal gather rate from buildings.
SO… it could be done, but it would require a lot of fine-tuning, and I don’t know if the devs want to put the effort in. Would it be cool? Hell yeah! I’d love to see it. But it would be hard.
ADD: This might also be a point where a unique Dakota villager could be available, the Wozu, that would be more like a normal villager, not mounted, and specialize in gathering from the Three Sisters Garden. Sort of like a reverse Settler Wagon, it’d be a weaker villager available that’s more cost-efficient on the Garden than the Khuwa are.
2nd ADD: The Wozu could also be available to the Hauds, interestingly. The Dakota and Hauds would not have been far from each other, with the easternmost territory of the Dakota being within a few hundred miles of the westernmost Haudenosaunee borders. It could be similar to a Mercenary Villager or Native Villager that both can ship in that specifically gathers from the Three Sisters Garden faster than either of them.
Would also make sense, as the Dakota were remarkably proficient at the method, to a level that most other woodland natives were not.
(Wozu means “farmer,” while Khuwa means “hunter”)
If you actually read the context of this discussion, you’d understand that I wasn’t arguing to include the klan, but i was arguing that going for historical realism is not possible because you’d have to include the confederates, or the clan.
You’re correct otherwise, microsoft is an american company and this issue is taboo in america.
Then buff them by half the power they were taken away. Seems like a balancing issue more than a gameplay or game-mechanical issue.
When we talk about “historical accuracy” there is a natural but implicit gameplay or “fun” factor taken into consideration. I don’t think that even needs to be explicitly stated.
If I want to play a history based game:
Playing an actual nation with its actual renowned units experiencing real historical events is fun. It’s fun by just looking at them. It’s fun to see culture, society and military from the past come to live. It’s more fun than a random pile of bonuses, or randomly shuffled looks, or space marines versus elves (for that I have other games).
Simple as it is. That’s the “accuracy” we mean.
Why do you think movie and TV production attaches more and more importance to the accuracy and authenticity of costumes?
Because it’s fun.
Playing the Klan is not fun. It’s notorious, and it reminds some people of the unpleasant part of history some of which they may have experienced themselves.
Why doesn’t the MC need to go to the toilet in every single game even in those that claim to pursue realism?
Yeah i know, the point is we are talking about different types of historical accuracy.
You are arguing for: “we would need to depict everything for a balanced approach - also rascist stuff”
Everyone else is arguing for: “we need to NOT depict important cultural aspects in a wierd pseudo-historic way, that are based on rascist stereotypes made up in colonial times”
So in the pov of Microsoft there is no incentive to include the klan, but there is incentive to rework lakota
Mounted villagers wouldn’t have the be 2 pop.
They could still be 1 pop since there are also multiple 1 pop cavalry units in the game too.
That would also be a good visual indication of why they are good at hunting.
They could cost 120 Food with a limit of 80 similar to French Coureur des Bois but instead of collecting all resources faster they only collect natural resources faster. They could have a normal collection rate on buildings but that would make them effectively worse because of the higher cost.
Similar to Coureur des Bois they are also stronger at combat.
So a hybrid between the Coureur des Bois and Berber Nomad.
The idea of a separate hunter and farmer villager is quit interesting.
The Wozu could be unlocked though a home city card.
I do. Somehow it’s “fun” to raid villagers with oprichnik and you’re explicitly rewarded to commit atrocities and war crimes by the 3x multiplier as well as the xp trickle, considering the tortures like quartering they did to rural peasants, but it wouldn’t be “fun” to do the same with a klan unit? Considering using the oprichnik against the enemy civ is ahistorical, too? Now that’s hypocrisy.
Indians mining isn’t racist, it’s at best historically inaccurate. Same with the dancing ceremonies. In fact, the “racist” card is only brought if other arguments can’t be found - to silence the discussion.
You are again confusing it with the base mechanics of the game.
Everyone can raid villagers. Every civ and every unit. You play the resistance in some scenarios and you still raid the oppressors’ villagers. There is no prejudice against any of the civs. They don’t damage the enemy’s economy by going to baths, or drinking tea, or casting spells, or dancing around fires.
BTW if oprichnick still exists today and advocates atrocities against rural people, then what you’re saying is totally right.
I suppose I should explain more of my thinking behind the cost:
The Lakota excel at hunting. Villagers cost food. By default, through just playing the civ in a generic manner, the Lakota will have the resources to mass villagers much faster than most civs through simply massing food much faster.
This, effectively, causes “food inflation”. Food costs need to be raised across the board for the Lakota - not to completely negate the bonus the Lakota get to hunting, but to compensate for it so food is still worth something.
The reason I push for Khuwa to be significant threats in a militaristic manner - IE, my mods always have them as the Lakota replacement for an archaic archer - has two major reasons;
However, this needs to come at a cost - with high hunting ability, a normal food increase to 120 or so wouldn’t be enough. The Lakota gather food so much faster and so much better that 120 food is basically a normal villager cost for them. I’ve put their cost up to 150 in my own mods and still felt that they were too cheap because of how easily the Lakota can mass food.
Basically, their cost needs to be significantly higher than you expect to make it balanced.
ADD:
Personally, I think this would be a fun direction to explore. With the religious specifications of the Lakota, a Native/Mercenary Villager to come in and gather the Three Sisters Garden for them would be a reasonable explanation. The Lakota never tried to push their beliefs on others and actively traded their bison for corn, squash, and beans - this shows they didn’t mind that other nations didn’t follow their beliefs and were happy to profit from them, it was solely just themselves that they needed to ensure followed these beliefs.
Boi, read!
I didnt say its racist in the game, but they are based on racist stereotypes.
The dancing stuff is just the savage native trope
Are there that many units with a 3x multiplier against vills, that are notorious for committing crimes? If it’s a base mechanic, surely the addition of klan units wouldn’t bother you?
BTW if oprichnick still exists today and advocates atrocities against rural people, then what you’re saying is totally right.
Why would that matter? The game doesn’t take place in a modern age. Nobody alive today was around in the mid 19th century. It’s historical either way
I didnt say its racist in the game, but they are based on racist stereotypes. The dancing stuff is just the savage native trope
But they did dance in ceremonies. How’s it racist to point it out? Again playing the “racist” card.
No we didn’t. The fuck? Ceremonies and dances are two completely separate things.
Go argue with history for all i care
Because it matters.
Yeah nobody alive today confronted racial discrimination. Sure.
Dances are not ceremonies. Ceremonies are not dances. Just because some random Wikipedia article written by someone with no actual experience in them says it is, doesn’t mean it is.
The two are, to the language and culture, two very different things.
Chapter 1: gameplay above historical accuracy! Don’t care. DON’T CARE! DON’T CARE AT ALL!!!
Chapter 2: desperately searching wikipedia to “proof” native Americans danced around fires in history.
Sun Dance, most important religious ceremony of the Plains Indians of North America and, for nomadic peoples, an occasion when otherwise independent bands gathered to reaffirm their basic beliefs about the universe and the supernatural through rituals of personal and community sacrifice.
Source: encyclopedia Britannica. Sun Dance | Native American Ritual & Ceremony | Britannica