Germans have always been a hard match up with brits but this patch it seems nearly impossible lol anyone else feel this way
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Nope. Germany feels like an upper B tier civ.
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try the gentlemen of the pike build, it seems to be the one stop solution for brits against everything
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what happened this patch to change this?
brits got buffed or changed this patch, not germans
what triggered the thought process for this patch?
And yes, germans have typically been a difficult matchup for british, but hardly impossible. the hardest part is both getting to age3 and not losing a lot of vills which as brits means lots of micro managing vs raids. but age3 and on brits longbow/cav is a superior composition to most german ones assuming no whacky DE merc shenanigans
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Germans didnt need access to more natives. The civ was balanced around population slots, or villagers or units, not both.
And europeans didnt need easier access to natives, 8 embassies werent needed. They already have a comolete roster of units and best economies
3 Likes
is this a treaty issue?
arent brits kind of mid tier at best anyways there?
Not much has changed so just wall up so you can do your manor boom in peace, make a batch or 2 of longbow to fire from behind your walls and continue beating germany.
I didnt talk about british, but Germany and France defenitely dindnt need more natives.
Europeans are the strongest playing natives as they have factories (or Sublime porte/Southern sea bubble trades) for wood supply plus strongest coin economy.
Meanwhile other civs dont get them and have to sacrifice villagers to get the wood for example.
Before you could counter a natives player by taking down 3 embassies, 8 are too much.
2 Likes
in the last two updates, as a result of the nerfing other civilisations from S tier and the buffs to Germany, it is objectively the most broken civilisation right now. there is currently no civilisation to be as broken as Germany. many other top players share the same opinion on this issue. I hope it will be fixed next patch.
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On what metric “Germany is objectively the most broken civilization right now” ?
Who are the top players you talk about ? Please use facts and stats rather than personal opinion 
Germany balance has barely changed since the beginning of DE, I don’t get why it should now
14 Likes
are any of your “top” players inside top10?
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No civilization has as broken civ bonus as Germany has, in age 1 you recieve +1 villager compared to standard 3 villagers, in age 2 you recieve +1 villager + 2 uhlans compared to 5 villagers shipment and +2 villagers + 2 uhlans compared to 4 villagers shipment.
- Germany is the only civ in the game that recieves both economic and unit bonus.
- Germany has one of the highest unit mass in early game
- Germany semi-ff is one of the fastest
- Germany can not be punished by almost no age 2 pressure in the game
- Germany can have equal unit mass while aging compared to civilizations like Russia, Aztec, Haud
- Germany has the best mercenary and outlaw options in the game
- Germany War wagons can not be easily countered by certain civilisations like Russia, Sweden
- Germany uhlan falconet mass amount is broken in a level that some civs can’t do anything against it e.g brit, h
Let’s make comprasion of other civs with similar exp penalty to Germany
Germany: 10% exp penalty for 1 more villager in age 1, 1 more villager and 2 more uhlans in age 2 with 6 vills 2 uhlans shipment, 2 uhlans with each shipment in age 2, 3 uhlans with each shipment in age 3 which makes up to 1450 resources worth value, 4 uhlans with each shipment in age 4.
India: 9% exp penalty for 1 villager with each shipment sent, no scaling of bonus by reaching the next age
Hausa: 8% exp penalty for 1 cattle with each shipment sent, no scaling of bonus by reaching the next age
Italy: 5% exp penalty for no shipment bonus, can ship age 3 mercenaries in age 2 by spending another 300 food 300 wood 300 coin on it, no scaling of bonus by reaching the next age
According to the objective data, Germany has the most overwhelming civilization bonus for a shipment penaty of 10%, which is far from comparable to other civilisations in the game.
Germany has very small weakness, one can argue civilisations like Hausa, Spain, China do well with their composition in age 3, which isn’t wrong since in equal numbers you need ability to kite with goon and skirm against Germany or have trainable Musketeers. Germany still performs decent against these soft counter civilisations with the ability to have one of the highest amount of unit mass in the game and great late game options.
Stats about why Germany is broken
Based on the current 2000+ elo, Germany has 67% winratio compared to USA and other civilisations which were massively nerfed, Germany has second highest pick ratio as well. Germany has also been buffed a lot recently while anything around Germany tier keeps getting nerfed constantly.
Few months ago, kaiserklein had similar claims on Germany, we agreed on playing showmatch on stream and it ended quite one sided for the Germany player. You can watch it here
- If we come to the time now, this is the score on live stream with Germany.
You didn’t see it wrong, it’s 68-2! As for the players who have shared their thoughts about such a broken civilisation recently are Revnak, diarouga, Juliank, Kynesie, Erwtann, Chef sudiste, Swords Light, Mack, and many other players among the competition expressed Germany to be an overperforming civilisation.
As a result, Not only objective statistics, also the showmatch result with the player who claimed otherwise on Germany, and the matches going on as an experiment on this issue and is currently running as 68-2, as well as the participation of many players from the top level, I conclude that Germany is objectively broken, I hope that this civilisation will be reworked in the future.
25 Likes
yes that’s why the 10% penalty
early one the mass isn’t broken, you only have 6 uhlan more if we say 3 shipment, not like it’s impossible to kill 6 uhlans right, but if you talking about age 3 shipment i mean yes, this is germany like it’s their design to get more mass than opponent early on
But honestly i think you overestime too much uhlan dude
one of the fastest yesn but the fastest ? i mean otto haud fre for exemple are faster simply because they up faster than germany age 2
what do you mean ? ye haud can also get this amount of mass while aging, fre too and also otto
that’s not true, germany struggle vs big timing at 8 min if it’s executed well because yes you have a good mass that’s true, but it’s xbow pike and paper uhlan vs real unit and 3 ww+3 uhlan or 9 uhlan is not enough sometimes, i remember seeing you playing vs opti swe and you almost lost by a timing caro huss xbow… you won because opti decided to age and throwed all his army vs a 5 wood wall after aging
ye like fre has the best nats, what do you mean here ?
idk malta has the best xbow pike or brit has the best musketeer xD
ye 2 civs, what can you do this is just a bad mu, its like brit spain or dutch spain, it’s just civ design who make these mu bad, you not gonna nerf war wagon because 2 civ can’t counter them and yet swe atleast can get jeagers or 15 range caro
you mean a timing uhlan falc at 10min30, how brit can’t counter it, isn’t the semi ff brit is around 9min30 ? they have 1 min for ship 2 falc and make 5 huss with the couple of musk you got earlier ( or pike whatever ), ofc if opponent make musk lb vs that…
yes but india nerf on xp penalty was bad in the first place but one vills still great, we can’t denies that
this same cattle has a 300 wood or coin value later dude… even more sometimes, this is a sort of investment and it’s super good…
i think at the realese of the last DLC i saw tilanus saying it was for encourage player for use more the cathedral army, so must be the reason i suppose
idk man those stats does not make any sense, i think i saw you saying port and lakota are bad but look at their winrate according to your screen, and i saw you also saying haud and hausa broken right even fre, and look at their stats
well bro, you force kaiser to pick port vs germany… you are a port player and you know perfectly this mu is bad, cmon dude
you have no better exemple ?
honestly id play you only ger for see how many game i’d lose, i’m kinda curious, you prob gonna win more game than me but i’m not sure if you can win every single game
And concerning your 68-2 thing ye ok… but diarouga really… like he played 50 game on DE and that’s it…, Chef sudiste play only port and swe so ye he kinda biased, 2 civ bad vs germany and anyways it’s not even a top player ( no offense really )
who’s erwtann, isn’t this is the one playing only mercs ? whats his elo ? i don’t know what’s his name in DE
who’s Sword Light ?
Mack is a top player too ? ok i didn’t know
Kynesie ye ok maybe he think germany is broken and so what, i think inca is still broken and so what xD
Julian said germany is broken ? the last time i saw julian he said germany is just designed to be high A tier, always be a strong civ which is true i’m completely agree with that, but i also saw him 3sw age 2 recquire any nerf and the civ is not unwinnable, maybe i’m wrong i need to re ask him maybe
So ok i’ll take the kynesie and your opinion but 2 top players saying germany broken over how many ?
well again, who ? plz ask real top player not the retired top player or the one you chose
exemple : me taking lord raphael or knusch or H20 or any of these retired top player’s opinion for defend germany isn’t broken, you think their opinon are good ? xD ofc not…
12 Likes
The 68-2 thing again? Civ grids? Well, I do love the smell of cooked stats in the morning. The issue when you say objectively and then broken is for something to be objective, by definition it has to be able to stand up to scrutiny (. TL:DR; is there is nothing close to make that claim. So, let’s parse through some of the data issues:
1- a brief overview of your games show many concerning issues. First, the account you referenced doesn’t have 70 games of Germany on this patch. of those, only 10 had games vs 2k+ elo making the 68-2 dubious claim at best if not outright untrue. Statistically, your win rate with every civ vs someone 1900 and under will be inflated compared to the norm. It is also hard because you purposefully have 3 accounts, which i dont even think is supposed to happen, splitting the data up. you have lots of old losses on the original account and the new 3rd account is mostly vs under 2k players. As you can see in the stats graph you posted, Germany doesn’t even have 70 games of 2k elo vs 2k elo this patch. You need more 2k vs 2k elo games for there to be accurate win rates and the 68-2 is unfortunally not representative of accurate measurable data that can be taken.
fwiw, Germany had a 50% win rate last week in this bracket. this is suggesting the current win rates are extremely variable due to insufficent data. in other elos, the win rate drops. while I know some pros like to dismiss all others as inferior, the fact is truly overperforming civs will also spike across all elos as even 2 equal skill players, a op civ will being to pull ahead in win rates by the nature of being overpowered. this is an objective fact of which Germany is not demonstrating. You went and picked all time as well, which because you did also has issues of patch strength- how much was when pandours were broken? Or some of the more op mercs like the og armored pistoleers and bosniaks? To use all time data, you need to compare and control for other trends of these cards in civs and see if they too spike and fall.
2- All of the other civs across all time had higher win rates. usa last patch did, are you controlling for this on this summary? I don’t see anything suggesting such. Also, for a win rate to be representative, you need to run analyses of variance to test the stability of intraspecific matchups. I can tell looking at the data there are so few matchups, with many being 100/0% that it wont pass it but if anyone is interested i could for the sake of clarity. What this would mean, is that the win rates at the higher level due to small sample sizes are more likely due to “error” or chance; historically only very few civs have been played enough for the rates of win to stabilize between patches
3- using all time data. this is definitively a bias choice as put simply, its hard to justify nerfing a civ on past choices. France, Otto, Sweden have been at times OP. does that mean they deserve nerf? for a civ to be “overperforming” in the present, a data cut off has to be reached. or you are using stats that are no longer relevant. Not to mention all time is only 262 games is such a small sample again. I could run some data on this but i see several 100% which is ironically 100% indication of too low of sample size to be relevant.
4- pick rate- this is a good tool to check people’s engagement level but also filled with issue. Germany was pretty low picked about 6months ago. Haude, despite win rates being high, is also incredibly low picked. This is not an accurate tool that correlates into civ win rate very well. Brits and Otto stay high despite fluctuations and AR civs even when “broken” stay low suggesting most players preferences play a stronger role. There are those who chase metas, but at least as much who play for what they like. So win rate isnt exactly a smoking gun, but isn’t all bad either- if Germany is increasing in play rate, it could mean several things. nothing presented can corroborate it.
Based off what is presented, there really isnt much support for “objectively” data proof. infact, its a good call for people to test germany more at higher level. instead of spreading data across 3 accounts, maybe play 100 games as Germany on the main and encourage others to play into it publicly, then try to get other top players to play more Germany so win rates can be better demonstrated with less statistical error. That could help there be better information and garner better data. if the goal is truly to demonstrate “objective” overpower, that would be the most efficient. As is, there is simply insufficent data to demonstrate the claim that germany is “OP.” While it will always be hard to get enough data in a small pool of data we have, calling for “objective op” is not demonstrative at this time.
Lastly, speaking of stats, what are the odds that out of the 5 likes you got, 2 are from brand new accounts, 2 are from accounts only posting on germany then going dormant again? These are also statisically unlikely numbers especially so fast if trying to create an accurate census of player feedback. It would appear there is some interesting trends on accounts here.
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the name of the game where players who are below 1000 elos try to teach the best player of the game is aoe3 definite edition dude
1 Like
prophetic words here
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Unfortunately elo doesnt actually equate to any real life ability to read, interpet, and learn statistics. Tuns out pixel points are meaningless outside of a screen in game and worthless in a statistical debate. But your very welcome to try and debate with statistical knowledge instead of to use actual “ad hominen” attacks which fall flat when 1- its not about game strategy but literal quantifiable maths outside of a game which elo does not keasure at all and 2- personal attacks on me doesnt actually do anyhting but further show lack of coherent counter arguments which strengthens my points that there is not enough objective data. After all if all you can do is try to insult a person not their position, it begs the legitimacy of said persons stance
Good to see you out of retirement after being created only to use revnak exact words, then inactive till now. Who are.you in game btw curious now?
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Account created
8 min
Post 6min. 2 minutes between account crearion and post. 0 before.
Thats 3 so far today. What are the odds?
Very organic and normal to see some comments supported by known members, others vauge and created just today. Im sure this isnt organized, right?
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This is getting creepy.
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I thought it was sad to create and pay for a 2nd and 3rd account in game just to maintain your number 1 spot/winstreak on the ladder but making several accounts on the forums to reply to your own topics is on another level.
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