Im going to delete my reply because I’m reading over it again and I just now realized what you were replying to and I agree. But I’ll be watching you young man!
I would like to understand that the shipment of 3 SC is also that strong because if Germany wanted to play the boom it is almost impossible to do so in age 2 due to the cost in the flow of shipments + economic bonus with too small impact at the beginning, because practically the difference The brand improves them as a percentage with the carts of settlers, not the unit as such because it is the same as 2 villagers at the beginning,
The civilization does not have an economic bonus at the beginning, it needs to push with something to obtain a solid economy, the shipment of 2 SC is not bad since the first shipment arrives later than the 3 villagers unlike other civilizations due to the experience curve, that It can be seen because it does not go quickly to age 2 like other civilizations.
3SC is debatable but I want to bet that it should not be nerfed. I think that if Germany feels strong it is entirely the fault of the nerfs to the other civilizations that make the match ups feel very different
It clearly feels when you play British and Holland that before you could age a little faster even risk passing with 1 less villagers and take off the economy quickly, but with the nerf to British and Holland it feels that a German Semi ff is stronger in against because those civilizations are weaker now, I who play a lot with Spain feel how this match is getting worse and worse because before I remember that with war dogs at age 3 they were much better and cost less you could practically have trades more comparable to the Uhlans, the experience curve a little slower, you could do a ff with 15 villagers to obtain better timing when the shipment of 3 villagers arrived earlier and you could also obtain better treasures, etc., all the legacy civilizations have The early or a certain aspect that helped hit Germany has been nerfed, such as the 12/10 with France that when they took 50 of food from France it was done with the same frequency
But Germany has always been the same in the sense of strengths and weaknesses, all the changes it has received are of little significant help and only serve for a specific strategy such as the real improvement of the fourth-rate guerrillas, which is a minority of the games in 1v1, mercenary card, passing crossbows to guerrillas or war carts to another unit similar to the dragon, in short, that for me is a very small impact on Germany’s standard BO.
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Germany with that shipment has 6 villagers + 2 Uhlans, no civilization has more than 5 villagers from a single shipment. And it has an important impact, which is why I will explain below.
Germany does have a very important bonus at the beginning, which I’m surprised you ignore, Germany almost always starts with Market and hunting dogs. It is an important bonus if you add SW to the equation.
Also, as a color fact, your Explorer has +15% regeneration, allowing in theory, that you have more treasures at your disposal and that you are safe to build TP in transition (Solving the exp curve in early game, we could even say that the first 3 German shipments do not have such a high impact, if you do what you have to do)
It has to be balanced, the British, Lakotas and Sweden originally had 5 villagers at their disposal and were removed for balance, why should Germany with an equivalent of 6 villagers be the exception?
Okay, a very solid argument for why Germany deserves a balance.
In fact, no, Germany had many small indirect buffs that help it a lot, here are some examples.
-Church with exp drip
-Bar now has coin drip
-More experience treasures, guardians give more experience, easier treasures.
-Explorers with skills
Also direct buffs
-Doppel buff HP
-New and better cards in Fortress and Industrial.
I believe that Germany has climbed too much throughout this time, while the rest have been losing things. It hurts whoever hurts, civilization needs balance. The only thing that prevents civilization from being perceived as “broken” is that it requires a lot of skill to use them, but that does not justify that civilization is in a state of imbalance.
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Just from personal experience Germany feels like playing on easy mode to me—but strangely enough I usually don’t feel like they’re super oppressive when playing against them. So I don’t know how to feel.
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But most other Euro civs get either a market and hunting dogs or a TP. Also, the regen is worse than most other civs bonuses. British get +1 range and +2 los. Swedes get +1 melee attack which is +3 vs treasure guardians. I point out the bonus to say “more treasures than who?”. I’d argue, not more than French, Brit, Swedes, Italy, Malta, Spain, Dutch, etc. And Germany has to save some HP to build the TP otherwise your hurting.
I am inclined to agree that the buff to treasure kill exp is an unnecessary buff to Germany, that probably is more heavily felt by them then other civs. An easy fix here would just be split the difference between the old and new numbers.
The church exp was kinda required from a game play perspective, some civs were just unplayable on no TP maps. It doesn’t feel like something to penalize Germany for.
The Tavern coin feels like you’re reaching real hard. It’s like one vill, so just nerf that. No need for Taverns to provide coin.
I’m not actually even against a small nerf. Just reintroduce 180ph Uhlans and everything is fine. It nerfs the civ bonus a bit, but it doesn’t unnecessarily limit Germany’s already limited options like an eco nerf would.
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I agree with this, it’s a pain in the ass that an uhlan with 5 HP always escapes after 2 clean shots.
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Fwiw haude has with an age up the same or more than germnay on land, more if water, after 5 vills compared to 3sw (2 vills 1 healer 250w wh travios vs 400w)
Not always macro for steeltraps aftet market and placer mines is useless to age2 haude, and 6 tomo macro almost the same as traps anyways
Food for thought
If we compare Haude with Germany (I am main haude, but I also play a lot with Germany), I always choose Germany. Mainly, because you always have cavalry at your disposal. With haude you must take very good care of your kanyas. And well, besides, by making market improvements such as steel traps or amalgamation, Germany already has a better economy (and if we add the fact that you have 700w and 700g for semiff even better!)
Another colorful fact, SW tank damage very well, against any other civ I can punish by killing villagers quickly with a push, vs Germany, good luck killing SW.
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That’s more an issue of unit design tho. Kanyas beeing crippled specialists compared to ulans which are fragile class cannon hus.
1 is generally usefull, the other is cav with a wood pricetag that performs best against arty.
And this is great to age up with market hunting dogs without TP at 4min30 17 vills ?
I mean just look at the other civ age up time with which building or the amount of vills, give me one civ with a worst age 1 except russia ethiopia hausa, give me one
dude you forget you have an opponent, you not free at taking every single treasure on the map, and i don’t even mention civ with faster explo or a dog or a scout or an explo with more HP so pretty much almost every single civ… so ye that’s nonsense
Because the civ was balanaced around this shipment ? and removing their civ bonus isn’t great either ?
Germany bonus : strong shipment with unique vills aka Settler Wagon, uhlan/shipment, 10% xp penalty
so the church thing is every civ, the saloon also every civ, the more xp on treasure is false because i think vivids decreased the xp on some guardians, the skill on explo is every civ, how is that a buff for germany ?
Doppel buff HP maybe i have no idea, but is this what people complain about germany ?
Better card in Fortress ye aka new mercs… and this is what make broken germany ?
Concerning shipment age 4 what’s new except new mercs or that new cav which is worse than the previous hussard card ?
The only buff i saw is better uhlan age 4 which is deserved because how bad the unit was late game and better ROF on their skirm, i assume the devs wanted a more unique skirm for germany but again is this what make germany broken ?
I feel like everyone has 1 single argument about germany aka that 3 settler wagons, but no one care about how bad would be germany without this shipment lol…
Also people tend to overrate uhlan, BLABLA 1450 ress shipment too good, yes but they are uhlan, litterally paper or xp donator…
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Longbow mass is one of the best mass of units, what are you talking about? You basically just described how you lost games. Then you will lose elo and finally you will find some positions where you win 50% and lose 50%. What’s the problem?
I don’t think anyone can argue with this. However, Germany also has a higher need for wood in the early game than other civs, so that bonus is not quite as great as it seems.
Perhaps instead of nerfing what is something rather iconic for Germany, move palatine settlements to age3 instead?
Arguably, except Sweden, the removal of the 5 villager card was a bad idea.
Come on… xD
I think the one card that could be considered somewhat broken is the one that replaces WW with some other cav i can’t remember the name of and also ships a bunch of them for food. Stacking that with uhlan shipments can lead to a good, all-in mass of units in age 3.
Whats intetesting is while people say age4 german cards are OP, outside of chadscythe11 (whos recently stopped FI as much due to losses) i dont see much use of them outside of teams. Since germany SW when idle are useless most german games they cant pull it off without costing too much map and idle time.
For a civ suppsedly so OP early on, it sure seems to fall off fast. So you nerf its early on it gets what?
Imho the best idea I saw was the uhlan -5hp since that would decrease value of idling/raiding oppo while not killing the 2 shots of eco germany gets to cripple the civ
Cause we saw how well 3 to 2 settlers did for brits right?
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“No other civ has 6 villagers as a shipment”.
If we’re talking eco power, this is false 
If you have shipped Virginia company, 700 wood is a 8 villagers + 176 XP shipment for brits.
Wignacourt constructions is better than 6 villagers if you have more than 26 villagers, and does not cost population.
If you have 2 lombards, as is often the case in standard greedy builds, monte di pieta is equivalent to about
7,5 villagers (!) unraidable and costing no population, for 1minute and 40 seconds.
If you have t1 market upgrades + steel traps, simply investing food in a lombard is 1.5 villagers per lombard.
And suddenly some people forget that USA gets an age 2 10 villager shipment +80XP if you have sent the right card cards previously ?
Oh, I’m sorry, did I forget Engelsberg ironworks on a full torpboom for a whopping 5.4 c/s, which is about 9 unupgraded villagers on coin ?
“But dunamai, these are special conditions, germany can get 6 villagers from age 2 regardless !”
MEXICO BAJA. GETS. A. FACTORY. AGE. 2. up to 10 villagers before you can even send the damn shipment as Germany.
India gets 4 unraidable upgraded villagers on wood + 1 villager in age 2, which is arguably a better shipment than 6 raidable vills (with range resist) and 2 uhlans, as 80% of the shipment will get value regardless.
USA : Russian-American company.
Laughs in Aztec, Haude, Russia, Brit age 2, Spain logi… But I am no rank 1 player, so I guess that is fair. I won’t say more about the idea that the German Rush is the best in the game, even though I have my doubts.
Isn’t pike rushing incredibly effective vs Germany ? You’re forced to ship 8Xbow before a house is torn down, because, and let’s remind everybody, all age 2 germany cards (except team) are pop-dependent.
Imagine your civ bonus be like : “housing you also casts Continental blockade on you”
These make sense, actually, and I think the treaty community has spoken multiple times about the pandour problem, IIRC.
5 sepoys + 1 villager is a thing.
Italy generates between 0.2 and 0,4 xp/s per architect, and can generate 3,2 xp/s second safely with their unique buildings and units, the equivalent of about 3 TPs. 5 % xp nerf is more than warranted at that point.
The thread is not bothering me, people are welcome to complain, but there is a lot of factually inaccurate statements from a professional player, which I find surprising.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I’ll go back to rambling about the fact that Otto was balanced around expensive vill techs and TCs, and 10% RR Spahis. Cheers !
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If Germany is broken, I doubt it will be in the first 3 ages. It remains practically the same as it has always been. For Germany it is almost mandatory to go up to age III to have decent units.
Furthermore, it is not like other European civilizations that begin to pressure and besiege you with cannons once you reach age III. In fact this is a disadvantage because Germany has almost the same problem as civilizations without cannons at least for a couple of minutes (no area damage against infantry). In addition, the cannons are also sometimes a defense against other cannons, because although it is not their counter, it could be said that it is a deterrent against the enemy siege.
Germany also requires good map control and is not like some civilizations that can stay at their base almost from the beginning, since it has a greater need for gold than many civilizations and needs sources of coins almost urgently.
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I’m sorry, but that statistic about Germany is not credible. The best player in the world is playing it frequently and it is obvious that the winning rate is overwhelming, and I don’t think there are many people who exceed that range (+2000 ELO).
Revnak has said that civilization is broken, but I think he is the one who is broken XD.
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2000+ ELO, as of Dec 9th, 2023, consists of 35 accounts. Three of them are known to be Revnak’s. At least 10% of those accounts.
On the current patch, there have been 62 games played as Germans, with at 65% win rate. Only 62 games. So a 40-22 record. Given Revnaks self-published win rate of 32-6 as Germans on this patch, he accounts for 60% of all games in that ELO bracket. If we exclude his performance, there have been 26 games, with a record of 8-16. So any non-Revnak players in that Elo range playing Germans have a win rate of 33%
So yeah, it’s Revnak, not the civ.
Due to the extremely small sample size, there is no statistical significance to any numbers Revnak presents.
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It’s also worth noting that there have been 9000+ games on the current patch as Germans for all players on the ladder, with a win rate of 50.5%. 2000+ Elo games account for ~0.7% of all games.
You don’t balance games around the top <1% of players. For the vast majority of AOE3 players, the civ is really well balanced. Doing something ludicrously insane like removing the 3 settler wagon card would destroy that balance.
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You are answering to Revnak, aka Foggierwizard41 here on the forum, but that is not important, the important thing is that i just noticed that your profile image is the TEC titan from sins of solar empire, nice one
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that shows that it is an op civ because no other civ that much spammed has over 50% win rate.