Give China more officials

default 4 officials
and when entering a dynasty, then the limit +1

China need more officials.

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A tech on the Imperial age inside the Imperial Academy would be a good option, for example:

“Officers expansion”: research this technology will give you 2 more Imperial officers slots. Cost: 150wood 100 gold.

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China is in a good spot, I don’t think any IO buff needed

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luls clearly

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China is hard to use and the map pool doesn’t have enough good maps for China.

P.S: That is pre-patch.

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Being hard to play means it should perform worse within the lower ranks of the game. Even so China had not that good win rates pre patch with the only exception of bronze (kinda ironic).

Also the civ isn’t even that hard to play mechanicaly, its just that its early game sucks while the dominant civs have outstanding early game.

With the last patch the devs clearly want more feudal action, which sucks for the chinese even if you go all out with imperial officials boosting production. Hopefully we will get something to early military but i don’t know if more IO would help.

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There is no update for the AOE4 worlds as of yet and patch won’t affect china that much other than mongols might actually over take the winrates now vs china. Every match up is on negative side for china and EVERY map. You talk about there is not enough good maps ??? According data there is no good map for china. If mongols get better against china then chinas winrate plummets to 40%

Yes china is hardest civ to play which is very true, but chinas pickrate isn’t the lowest which is usually indicator of 2 things. Either civ sucks or civ is too hard to play. Its still bottom tier and in manytimes chinas pickrate been worse than it is now.

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Also generally being hard to play is rewarded by strong bonuses so skilled players can perform better than using a simple strighforward civ, or else why punish a civ with being harder to play with no reward?

I do play China because i like Chinese culture, i will play the civ even if it is the worse in the game. But it is very sad how the civ is performing poorly (with stats for everyone to see, even someone made an in-depth analysis with data science https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe4/comments/wcs2k0/analysis_of_civ_balance_from_40000_games/) while the “general perception” is that the civ is super duper strong S tier and keeps getting treated as such by the devs.

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Well, I am a china main, I hope nothing but the civ to be viable, and at this current state it really is in a good spot, as I have been saying it since June, when most people saying that China will be dead in season 2, and ofc it isn’t. I really don’t want China to turn to be an OP civ where everyone hates/insult whoever picks China.

China feudal is not really weak, as it’s always economically ahead of most other civs in feudal, giving china ability to spam more units than most enemy. As I mentioned before, the IO is most effective in Feudal and early castle. During 8-12 mins, you can easily get ~400 gold from taxes every mins, while having 20% extra resource, or boosting military building, this can be achievable even with 3 IO, one for food, one for wood, and one for military building.

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This I do agree but not the later parts. What part is being good spot at bottom of winrates and low pickrate???

Yes it is.

Show me gameplay where you micro 3 IO’s every 15 seconds to deliver tax and each delivery reduces the supervision time which results supervision not actually being 20%, but less. Then the fact that how much micro managing this would require it would just mean that you’re losing control over somewhere else.

In theory yes it would be possible to get 400g or more from taxes if we only consider how much taxes can be delivered via IO 80g/15 seconds so in 1minute 320G per IO, but in practice this is not true at all.

1 villager brings about 1g or 2g per 15 seconds (40resources per minute so 4 drops of per minute) not considering wheelbarrow now. So to hit that 80g per 15 seconds player needs 20-40 villagers in specific resource. 3 villagers per 1min or 4.5 per 1min if song with 1TC. It would take 5mins to reach the first point where 1 IO could potentially deliver 320G per minute if we don’t consider the fact that it might take longer than 15seconds to walk next building to collect tax and deliver it then the fact that IO would be completely tied to tax collection and not supervising so resulting 20% resource gain.

Training times are anywhere from 20-40 seconds and generate 4g or 8g. I actually tested out of curiosity this long time ago with scouts trying to spam scouts only to generate enough tax gold to use one IO constantly. Requirement was way too high it to be any level worth even considering even when placing everything perfectly.

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I mean, according to stats China is not winning most games until the 30 min mark. Sure stats are not everything and china does have more resources early but still it is not really enough to say it is in a great spot. I do try to play aggressive and produce supervised military units but just slightly more vanilla units don’t really net results unless you surprise your opponent (they didin’t scout properly).

I do think that very aggro China is a decent strategy but not particularly better than any other civ feudall all in. The whole thing with imperial officials is that either you macro them like a top 0.001% player or they just give you benefits in the long run.

IO gold is a very good source of gold, even comparable to Sacred sites in feudal, but wouldn’t that make Chinese have amazing results already? the problem i see is that Chinese bonuses while good by themselves don’t interact so good with eachother and that hurts the delicate tempo needed for Feudal all ins.
Well feel free to disagree, its just my opinion after all.

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Nah, it is fine. We agree to disagree then.

I am keeping my identity anonymous, so I don’t see the necessity of sharing it to random people.

The taxes collection cooldown is actually 20 sec, not 15 sec, might be even harder, but you can always force the drop off to remain around 20%, which also giving you more taxes, once you force them to drop off, it mostly return at the same time for quite a while. Or sometimes you don’t even need to force drop off if imperial academy is literally next to the eco buildings.

You usually have ~33 vills at min 8 as China, each vill usually drop off 4 times in one min, assume 30 vills on food and wood, which both in the area of Imperial academy, you would get around 240 gold a mins, around min 9, you can spam ZGN smoothly with being under supervision giving you 10 ZGN a min, generating 80 gold a min, and u make some spear or horsemen, so it gives you 32 or ~24 gold a min.

In total, you can generate taxes 352 golds a min, you could also get more if you force drop off, but usually you have upgrades from blacksmith, or harden spear upgrade, giving you 64 golds for each tech.

I didn’t ask your gameplay. I asked a gameplay. It doesn’t matter whose it is as long as it shows that someone is perfectly microing 3-4 IO’s for tax collection without compromising other gameplay.

What comes to tax collection cooldown you’re right. I don’t know it stick with me that it was 15 seconds.

Then the forced drop off. This is not good idea in the long run. Again it taxes your multitasking to completely next level making it much more harder to play and followed by subject to make crucial mistakes and lose the game. Also drop of while it benefits from supervision it will reduce the villager efficiency so its not exactly getting 2g + normal amount of resources due to walking distance. I have extensively used force drop off on to get higher gold income per minute if I feel like fully min maxing things and I can tell you rn if I do it alongside micro of my scouts I got no time to do anything else even tho Im far from best multitaskers in the world it would still require insane amount of focus and micro to do it with 4 IO’s perfectly, while my method is only to boost my gold to push into castle faster with wheelbarrow and pro scouts its something I stop instantly if I get pressured or I start making units because its not important vs other tasks

Depending on the resource etc, but the initial effect from IA being next to resource building is good boost for income early on but later on its not relevant anymore so longer the game goes on less likely you’re going to have same benefit as start of game.

33 translates to 132g or 264 gold. If you play a game alone with no one to attack you then you can fully focus on doing IO / taxes perfectly but in reality you will never be able to do that. Its like saying human can micro stalkers from SC2 perfectly which makes them the best unit in the game but in reality no human being is capable of microing them while IO is still just limited to 4 which reduces amount of micro required vs 20-50 stalkers dramatically but IO’s are still all over the place and you’re still forced to micro everything else.

If something the tax collection should be made easier than its now to lessen the burden of micro managing.

For example If tax is picked up with new button “pick tax deliver it to nearest drop point and return back to original task” this would allow easier micro with IO’s and less clicking 66% less clicks making it little bit easier while still keeping some of the micro of IO

It is true that forcing drop off isn’t healthy, but once you do it, it lasts for a while, which they will return mostly at the same time.

Abt it can’t be micro perfectly, it really depends on players and their apm. I also can’t do it perfectly every time. But for me, I have around 250-300 apm on avg, Checking IOs every 15-20 sec during feudal/early castle, while mainly focusing on sth else is not that a big deal, especially now we have an IO hotkeys. Once after mid castle, I barely check IOs much anymore, and mainly focusing on sth else.

Ye, that’s why I mentioned that IOs eco boosted is actually outstanding during feudal/early castle. When you dont have too many vills on one eco building.

Just reduce the cost to unlock dynasty and make dynasty bonuses aggregate ffs

My point is “China feudal is not really weak”, it might not be the top of the best, and still have some tough match up, where you might need to deviate the strategy acc. to what enemy does, but it surely isn’t weak as some say. You don’t need to Feudal all in, what you need is to keep yourself eco lead, remain tempo, and map control, and punish enemy if they go more greedy than you. Your main goal, in some match ups, is to get imperial really quick, while still have a cluster of ZGN, where it has a big power spike.

You might be surprised, I used to share the same opinions in china needing a buff as well like this extra IO which can be research from IA, this even dated back to November last year. But not anymore, as china is alr in a good spot.

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I tried with spearman with 20 barracs around the Imperial Academy and it seems to work

Diamond+ Win rate over time; China still has an early match up issue. I believe they did get a better percentage up tick compared to charted prior to this last 2 patches? but still most games land in the 10-30min window where China is not good ENOUGH. Giving China more Imperial Officials sounds like a buff that would come in later in the game like castle/imp; and that would be too late to help this win rate over time.

I believe China should get the HRE treatment!!! TAke resources away and GIVE US AN OFFICIAL TO START!!! So Far HRE get a free prelate, Delhi gets free wood for a mosque and a scholar, Mongols now get free ger; so Give something??! IFF a free Official tests out to be waaaaay too strong; then give us 50 wood extra like English! With an extra 50w we can decide to open village and NOT slow our age up by 10-15s, or make all the camps and get better song dynasty timing etc.

Give China something early to contended with the graph. Last point, after the nerf of towers notice China went to dead LAST on all ranks… seems I wasn’t the only one doing Chinese TR?? hmmm?

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Give China +50W (or make Village costs 100W) AND 1 extra villager. Free IO seems counterintuitive as they don’t want CN to skip dark age mining camp. The low WR is because almost every civ got an early game buff EXCEPT China.

Tbh CN’s early game might need something more than that. The dynasty system seems to be the problem. Dynasty’s investment cost is too steep in early game which is why CN feels like handicapped.

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That would be pretty unfair. China can take advantage of both landmarks and their bonuses are ridiculous. Song dynasty in itself is very strong. At this point in the game the only “useless” landmark is imperial academy but its ridiculously strong in team games. We have seen pro games with new china and China does not have to rely on second TC to enable its victory.