Giving Russian a proper age 2 timing attack!

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
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Hello guys !

I’m here today cause i feel russian a underwhelming, especially in their initially designed strat, and i would like to share an idea on how to give them a bit more power in the late age 2.

First, let’s talk about early aggression :

  • to early it feels unfair, beginners get crushed
  • to late your opponent reached age 3 already and 2 falconnets are on the way

Currently, early timing got nerfed one after the other, and honestly for the better. Your timing wont be able to hit before your opponent has a way to answer you. This is all fine.
But, thanks to defender advantage, this put the turtling player in a big advantage in case you push into his base.
You have to wait for him to leave himself open for an attack. Often it will be because they need to access resources, and in order to do so, they need higher tech, and they need to age up.

Problem being : once your opponent ages up, first shipment is 2 falconnets. So you need to inflict critical / lethal damage before that.
That leaves you with a very tiny attack window, being the transition from age 2 to age 3 from your opponent and the time it takes for their first age 3 shipment to arrive.

Certain faction have the power to do that, for example Brits or Japanese. Why ? Cause their superior age 2 economies allow them to mass good quality units without going all in at all. On top on that, they have strong upgrades for their units, especially the Japanese with the damyo power spike.

Russian have the ability to mass, that’s not the issue. The issue is that those units, while they are good enough to contain your opponent (until falcs comes out), they aren’t strong enough to kill him.

One very well designed card for Russians is Boyar. It’s a pay off for massing as a russian. You can’t send it early you just walk into your ennemy base, but it creates a strong power spike later in age 2.

My idea is to basically have a second pay off for massing as russians in age 2, and i think one card fit that role absolutly perfectly : the church upgrades.

The idea is on paper super cool : build a church (150 wood) + pay 900 wood = all your units get veteran status. The problem is… it’s an age 3 tech ! Meaning the real cost for it in paying 1200 food + 1000 coin + 150 for church + 900 wood. That’s a lot of resources and time ! Absolutly not fitting for a faction that want’s to go for a timing attack like the russians.

Instead, i would argue that tech need to be an age 2 tech ! Yes, veterans upgrade for russians on age 2 through church card + church tech. Remember that you have to pay 1050 wood for it !

That way russians have a way to compete late age 2 with early age 3 military, but would still be lacking artillery unless they age up themselves.
I gives them a very strong timing push with that upgrade + boyar, in order to inflict critical or lethal damage.

Hope the idea will be considered ! Feel free to share opinions ! Peace !

Kenoki

2 Likes
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Russian is a civ hard to play now imo, their rush pressure looks like a old car not revamp for decades and Inca and Swede just boom like a cool electric car(both eco and military aspects). Even the new age options doesn’t give Russian more strat varieties.
I think that church tech is a good start point, but veteran upgrades in age2 is insane. Maybe Russian can have free tech like other civs, which gives some crucial changes to military, such as strelets get more range in age 3 or later, or anti-cav tool in age 2.

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In my age 2 deck there is :

  • 700wood + 700gold
  • 13strelets + 5 cossacks
  • infantry training 1
  • infantry training 2
  • cav training 1
  • boyar
  • church
  • either 600 gold, 4 cossacks, advanced arsenal, 600wood

There won’t be any room for any other age 2 card. There is also the 10% team cav upgrade in age 1 that is usefull to me. That makes 11 cards that are really important to me.

I don’t feel like there is that much of a need because I have plenty of option to overwhelm myopponent and boost my army. And I won’t have any room for it anyway, except if it’s stronger then any of the above, but I doubt it…

TLDR : I feel like there is already a lot of options availables and don’t believe this is something I’d wish.

Btw, I’m pr25 in treaty and supremacy.

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pr25 doesnt count, this is definitive edition, what rank are you on matchmaking?

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I feel like every Russian should be playing with 700 gold, 600 gold, 700 wood, and 600 wood, and tasking all vils to food for the entirety of age 2.

The cav training and church cards seem less helpful to me, but then again I usually try to win in age 2.

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The game have 15 years of existence. So, yes, PR count, it’s like saying I was 1xxx on voobly

1 Like
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As of today you will hear anyone who is high level and plays russia say this " I usually try to win in age 2 " Because some or maybe all of them know that russia early Fortress or transition from Commerce age to Fortress is the worst of any civ right now.

I don’t think there is balance in having a civ that has to Rush on maps/balance/meta where going to Fortress and staying in base is more common. And russia having the weakest fortress age doesn’t help at all. So you’ll find yourself either winning some commerce age/Colonial age games. Or losing most of your games due to russia being so weak

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This seems more likely a multiplayer deck build. Putting 3 training card in deck makes no sense in 1v1 match. Russian team play is strong. In team game teammate can cover the weakness of Russian in early age3 and Russian can have a good eco boom after age3.

The Russian weakness is mainly at 1v1 match from my own experience.

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Yeah, it’s no joke that Russia’s supremacy game is weak and has gotten weaker in light of the recent changes.

You would think Russia would dominate in age 2 with its massing capabilities, but it’s really a hit or miss: inexperienced players get overwhelmed by 9 cav and 15 musks, or you find yourself playing against a good player who defends properly, only to get outboomed by them and have your life ended in early Age 3.

The rush isn’t even that strong, as you can only mass musks and strelet in Age 2, which can be countered by mass cav alone with the musks being so weak and squishy.

I just think Russia just needs a small buff to their units so you can still retain the idea of spamming weak units, but not so trashy to the point you’re throwing paper units at them.

So I propose a new card in Age 1: Surovov Leadership.
I see that Microsoft is all about historical accuracy - the Lakota civilization and the Haudenosaunee have been reworked to prove it. Apparently the guy was a ridiculously great Russian general and never lost a single major battle in his life (out of 63!).
Historians debate whether Surovov could trump Napoleon or not in a major battle (which actually never happened but would be interesting to see, as they lived at the same time era).

But, this card could buff Russian infantry and cavalry with a 10% attack and HP boost at a 10% price increase, reflecting Surovov’s dominance in battle.

Russia’s units are still weaker than the average, but the Age 2 rush can be bolstered and Age 3 survivability can be enhanced. Russia’s units are incredibly weak to start with, so this wouldn’t be a gamechanger, but, it definitely help them to do just a little better in this troubling meta.

(Original) 25% cheaper units for a unit that is 20% weaker --> 15% price reduction for a unit that is 10% weaker (less cost-efficient)

Massing capabilities remain the same.

Benefits:

Stronger strelets (which get horribly pop-inefficient later).

A stronger musk and cossack composition to stay in the fight longer against another mass army

Increased Age 3 anti-cav capability (which Russia has the worst trouble against, especially when you’re low on resources, and France is pumping out gendarmes or the Lakota goes all out, etc.)

It would be nice lol

2 Likes
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i think if the germany card thats gives 70 population per town center would be good for rusia because in this way strelet wouldnt cost 200 wood (100 paid for training and 100 paid for house)

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Just to answer, yes veteran upgrade age 2 is crazy good, but gated behind an heavy wood cost and a card in that case.

The idea is to give Russia a go in button they have to prepare for in advance. As the opponent tick age 3, they search the tech in their church, get their vet upgrades as their opponents are getting theirs, and they “skip” the process of having to age up (instead paying 1050 wood for example, church + research, this is up to balance and not design and would need testing)

Ofc all of that is very quickly mitigated by artillery that will soon come from your opponent that you can’t train or ship yet yourself, since you are still in age 2 ! In your push fail, you will still have to age up afterwards in order to get access to your age 3 units etc … Meaning you are far far behind your opponent !

Also if both sides decide to stay age 2, the wood cost will make you far behind in mass and map control in the first place, and your opponent will be able to pressure and trade your army down, thus reducing the benefit of the card + research in the first place.

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Why do you (@BadgePaladin095) think that the older timings using 700 gold, 700 wood, 5 Cossacks, boyars and 13 Strelets/ 4 Cossacks are no good anymore?

Also, which nerfs are you referring to?

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I’m not talking about a specific russian BO when talking about nerfs to early aggressions, but for example lakota just got nerfed that way.

On the cossacks + strelets timing : lack of siege + vulnerable to TC fire. That army can delay effectively and make sure you have map pressure, but will have a very hard time closing the game.

Which is perfectly fine btw. The idea isn’t to make those units better or weaker to begin with, but to give them the ability to scale through age 2 against an opponent that will almost inevitably reach age 3 and that you can’t or don’t want to follow in said age 3.

1 Like
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Russia is already one of the best civs for scaling through age 2. I don’t understand what you think prompts this kind of change being necessary or desirable. Scaling through age 2 is not Russia’s problem.

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Because they struggle to close out game or compete eco wise in order to follow their opponent in the third age. Meaning they have all the map control in the world and end up able to do nothing out of it.

And since scaling through age 2 is Russia signature, i think it’s more appropriate than giving them a reason to FF with a foward blockhouse (feels very spanish to me …).

Also if we compare age 2 scaling from Russia vs for example British or Japanese, it’s a complete no match. Both economic faction largely outmuscle Russia in late age 2. India is also better army wise while having a way better eco + a free fort. And all those 3 factions will transition better into age 3 thanks to their eco and have better payoffs in age 3.

So as i said, instead of just making Russia another go fortress faction, let’s give them more scaling in their late age 2 in order to keep up with opponent going age 3. And once again, instead of doing that by giving them a strong age 2 eco, doing more from less is very fitting for the russians, and in that case it’s a payoff for massing which is yet another signature of russia.

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This is so wrong. Russia fails against any civ that can stay in base and go to Fortress. Port/french/brits even japan. When any of these reach Fortress and russia still age 2. It is pretty much a lost game as Russia’s army is so weak.

You can’t compare Age 2 vs other civs age 2 as you might not be playing AOE per say. If you got the chance to age up as you now have lots of RESOURCES IN BASE Then you age up and get superior army comp. Which is what russia truly lacks. [ All maps in the ladder as of right now allow you to stay in base without the need of going out until you get a good army ]

Here is an example you can easily hold a Fast Fortress push if you were playing brit as this is a true Late age 2 civ. You get to go Longbow+pikes+husar and can take down any early Fortress aggression. As russia you really don’t have the army to take down Skirm/goon/canon or any comp that goes with srkim/ulan, skirm/cuirs or skirm + any strong cav and to all this you add the 2 canon shipment which then russia has to follow up and this is where they lose map control as russia’s early fortress is bad

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What’s changed since EP? Russia’s weakness to fortress play does not change the fact that their colonial scaling is still good. As I said before, this is why a change that improves their colonial scaling is not needed. This change attempts to improve further what is already strong, rather than what is weak.

To @BadgePaladin095 . Wider options given to the fortress options of Russia don’t have to make it like Spain. I also think that Russia’s units being so unique mean it is less likely than other civs to lose its unique identity. This feels like it will make Russia more dependent on colonial timings and scaling with its vils and efficient army than before. I think you are looking to improve the wrong aspect of Russia.

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I’m for asymetrical balance, you are for symetrical one. To me instead of patching weaknesses (bad age 3) it’s more interesting to make what is supposed to be a faction strength its actual strength.

As was said before, late age 2 from Russia is … weak. But it’s clearly their identity to be the one taking map control and try to drag the game in the longest age 2 possible. This split between expectation (strong age 2) vs reality (weak in the late age 2 and incapable of closing games before) make the faction overall weak.

“This feels like it will make Russia more dependent on colonial timings and scaling with its vils and efficient army than before”
Yes exactly, we can disagree on that being the correct idea, but that’s exactly what i’m looking for. And i really don’t see what’s wrong with that. Most factions have strong age 3 timings, thus making russia very unique this way.

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I agree with both of you. However, to me, russia colonial pressure isn’t about getting stronger late age 2. It is all about preventing the opponent growing and getting big. That’s why it is harder against civs like jap with the in base safe eco.

On the other hand, there is a pretty intersting FF and semi FF you could do. Sending 2 falcs asap with 15musks [around 7:30] or aging up with 17 strelets and cossaks made during age up time [7:50] is pretty big.

Since the rush russia provides is really strong, it’s very predictable. That’s why going FF gives you a big surprise factor.

some build that are almost never used by russian players but can be very usefull


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that doesnt work bro, i would kill you