Hand Cannoneers +20 vs infantry instead of just +10 sounds like a really good improvement, right?
Would it be enough?
sounds like a good idea since it doesnt increase their effectiveness vs anything else (like the accuracy/hp recommendations) it shouldnt have unforeseen ramifications…
Enough for what ? Killing infantry ? They are already good at that.
Buffing accuracy or lowering cost would be far better.
No need to make them a hard counter to a class that is already non-existent
11 Likes
plz no
I don’t think this change would make Portuguese, Turks, Italians, or any infantry civs more fun.
I know their description says they’re a gold-intensive infantry counter, but I dislike playing with gold-intensive hard counter units.
Interesting idea, but as already mentioned there problem isn’t really against infantry. I think +20 could increase the problem SOtL pointed out that there is a lot of overkill, which wastes their damage output.
What if we added a bonus damage against skirms, that would give them one additional thing that they are the better choice then arbs against. So you’d have to counter with cav, CA, or arbs?
5 Likes
Indeed, we need a pop efficient endgame-viable infantry. That’s what the game is lacking.
Then HC as a easy to tech in late-game hard-counter would be very interesting for all civs that lack decent archers.
Maybe tech line that reduces the pop space infantry takes would be interesting. And some of the stronger infantry civs don’t get the last upgrades, like goths and vikings.
But HC just can’t be a archer replacement, it’s just to easy to tech into, so they need a slightly different role, which i think can only be a infantry counter, all other options would make them too strong.
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As far as I know skirms don’t have armor class of their own. Devs need to add another class for this idea which requires a lot of balancing works.
I’d give the hand cannoneers (and janissaries) a small reload time buff, from 3.45 to 3.1, and a small accuracy buff, +5% or 10%, and see how it goes from there. I think they just need a little boost.
7 Likes
give +5 hp and increase +5 against infantry should do it.
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I would argue that Hand Cannoneers are one of the most underrated units. In order for Arbalest to be effective you need FIetching, Bodkin, Bracer, Crossbow, Arbalest, Chemistry, Thumb-ring, and Ballistics. For HC you need chemistry and maybe archer armor. 17 dmg nothing to laugh at, they perform decent against high PA units dealing 9 damage against FU skirms compared to Arbalester’s 2. Agianst low pa target HC are easily out class by arbs due to their faster firing rate, 100 accuracy, and ballistics. The main reason that they don’t see much play is because their role is to counter infantry which are not that prevalent in the meta and arbalest are good enough at that role. However I expect the introduction of Gamberson and the buff to several Infantry UU i expect HC to be more prevalent in the future.
5 Likes
Hand Cannoneers +20 vs infantry instead of just +10 sounds like a really good improvement, right?
Would it be enough?
It would be way too much. 10 is fine.
Some food for thought.
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This thread was dead for 3 years. Why necromance it?
3 Likes
Noooooooooooo please.
Yea Hand Cannoneers (and now also Janissary, after the patch) have been in need of a serious buff for many years.
But the way to buff it is not by slaughtering late infantry. Because late infantry is nowhere to be seen. It’s non-existant, as someone said here.
That’s more like it. Prob could do 3.1s reload with extra 15% accuracy to finally make HC (and new Janissary) minimal useful. It should always have been generalist, not anti-infantry.
more bonus vs infantry doesn’t fix the core issue with the units. Lack accuracy, low rate of fire and somewhat longer frame delays are what mess the unit up.
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Why even bother againwith this, Hand Cannoneers are in a fine spot now
2 Likes
There is little to no infantry play to begin with. What is the problem with these people?
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No wonder most people agree with this. HC-class is terrible but it’s not because infantry too strong. Just moderate buff reload and accuracy.
the real answer is HC gets wasted by skirms in a cost exchange fight during late trash war. if your enemy is making infantry units and you counter with HC with what little gold you have left, they can just throw away a group of 30-40 skirms, waltz in and chase down your HC and you have nothing ot kill those skirm fast enough unless you happen to have mangonel with you, which you most likely don’t because the gold went into HC.
2 Likes
No, they don’t need any sort of buff.
Think about it, what do HCs require? Chemistry to get them, and archers armours.
They don’t need thumb ring, ballistics, and another 2000 resources you need to spend on attack upgrades and unit upgrades like you do with archers.
So, they shouldn’t be anywhere as good as archers. They especially shouldn’t counter their counter unit, skirmishers, which is what will happen if you increase their accuracy and lower reload time.
They are fine. HCs of certain civs like Hindustanis is a bit OP already imo.
Okay, but that’s their counter unit. What are you complaining about here? Archers, HCs and cav archers are countered by skirms. What’s next, halbs shouldn’t counter cavalry?
Don’t make just HCs, put some trash units in front and you will be fine. In fact you’ll be doing better than them, because skirms are the weakest trash units.