Haud status for balance

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
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I don’t want to discuss too much for balance here but this is really unreasonable, so I still create a topic for this.

Comparison between Haud and euro civs
The cost is calculated by default villager gathering rate.

Toma vs Musk:
Cost: 75f 20w vs 75f 25g, almost the same.
Status:
Range attack: 19 vs 23
melee attack: 14 vs 13
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Initial attack speed: 1 sec vs instant


Horseman vs Hussar
Cost: 100f 75w vs 120f 80g, almost the same.
Status:
HP: 285 vs 320
Range Resistance: 30% vs 20%
Hand attack: 27 (x1.75 against falcs) vs 30
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Horseman under range attacked: 285/0.7 = 408
Hussar under range attacked: 320/0.8 = 400

Market:
Gold tech level 1:
Cost 75f 125w vs 75f 75w
Effect: same, 10% for gold mine

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Hunt and Goldmine tech:
Level 1 VS Level 2

For wood upgrade:
3 levels Total: 500f 785g vs 490f 730g, with total 60% upgrade.

Every gold mine Haud need 30sec per villager to build tride market. Euro vils don’t need.

Musket Rider vs Dragoon
Cost 55f 100g vs 90f 90g (Musket Rider a bit cheaper)
HP: 257 vs 241
range attack 25 (x3 against falcs) vs 26 (x2 against falcs)
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For early game, Haud need to pay more for same gold mine gather rate upgrade, with 30sec/villager construction work for tribe market.
For units, Toma gets 1 more melee attack but less 4 range attack for same cost as musk, every fight Toma are hit first before they can attack musk.
Horseman gets 8 more HP for range resistance but 35 HP less for melee attack, gets x1.5 against falcs but 3 less melee attack.
Almost all status for Haud units are lower than standard euro units, for same cost.

For mid game, Haud doesn’t have market level 2 upgrade for hunt and gold mining, those are 20%.
For units, Musk rider need 241/25/0.8 = 13 hits to kill a Dragoon. Dragoon need 257/26/0.8= 13 hits to kill a Musk Rider. So they are almost equal to each other, (Before Musk Rider range resistance 30%, was nerfed due to better than standard). However, Haud doesn’t have any effective anti-falcs in age3, (Ram and Mantlet don’t counter falcs), they can only choose Horseman (which weaker than standard hussar) rush into enemy, or Musket Rider to shoot (which in previous they are taking better role for 30% instead of no anti-falcs unit in age3).

In early game, Haud need to spend more resource to do upgrade, but worse units to fight. In mid game, eco is already worse due to no level 2 upgrade, still without effective anti-falcs unit. If Haud-love players are very pro that can stand until age4, they still don’t have any factories or any OP eco bonus card, but only North America trade that requires for natural resources (mainly hunt) which would almost run out in the map.

I know some people will say “their rush is strong, their ff is good” something like this. For another topic that most people encourage rush should be nerfed for longer game period and rush was actually got nerfed a lot, rush strong is not really a problem. Especially in team game, there are almost no one would use this civ due to above shortcoming. This is only a fun civ that only for people playing random civ that picks it unluckily (except TP countdown victory in some tournament).

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I am main haudenosaunee, although you are right on some points, I recommend that you take into account 3 factors that you forgot.
On the tomahawks, they have an incredible attack in melee vs cavalry. Then when you talk about HP, you should always remember that Haude WC provides a 10% boost (which makes most Haude units on par with or very close to their European counterpart)
The MR luckily recently received a bigger multi vs artillery (I’m not sure if it’s enough, but it’s something)
On the improvement of the market, I agree, for Haude it should be somewhat cheaper than for the Lakotas.

And finally, remember that Haude’s 3 infantry upgrades and 2 cavalry combat upgrades (+ WC bonus and armory upgrades) makes the Haude army better than standard European armies.

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About hunting, they are the natives that get the easiest way since they have travois to build a farm.

About mining, Im pretty sure they get the 1st upgrade by free cause fur market.

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I seriously think they should also have the farm techs in the market as well.

IIRC that was changed to increased yield instead of increased gather rate

also iirc their estate techs also increases all gold gather rate

On the army, yeah its often missed how upgradeable the tommahawk is with 3 combat cards in age 2 and the WC aura. Not to mention you have the shipment and the big button so you have a very powerful mass

The warchief micro is also very important I feel with that aoe crack shot, which softens the opponent before then even fight

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I am not main Haud but I tried more this civ after they added several new cards. So I found that Haud is too weak to play (at least for team game I mainly play). Their eco are always the worst even I had more vils than others.

For WC aura, this is bonus not a punishment, Aztec won’t gain less XP than normal without WC and Lakota won’t get less speed than normal without WC, for toma get 4 less range attack and especially slower initial attack speed for 1 melee attack is not a good trade. This problem is very serious in team game due to army are more massive and less chance to melee compared to 1v1.
Also horseman is worse than hussar and hard to obtain WC aura.

For only advantage Haud inf is war hut big button for 2 more range, but usually not be able to stand at that time.

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10% bonus was reverted for cancelling cost for tribal market.

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even in team games, the haud mass in age 2 is pretty potent,

You fast age up, card order are tomma, aenna, crates, upgrades and also research the 5 tomma big button have as much vils on food as possible while using crates for wood

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I have tried this rush the most and even FF or FI, so I create this post and this is my conclusion, Haud is too weak in team games, I would say this is unplayable that totally not the same level as other civs (I didn’t try Africa civs).
My main is Russia and Lakota even they got nerfed I still consider these two are much better than Haud. Not also mention British or Port is not my main and play much less but I can play much better than Haud.

That’s why I concentrate toma and horseman are weaker than musk and hussar, still with poorer eco.

I have showed all the status comparison for haud and euro civs to prove.
If Haud rush is considered good in team game I would prefer Otto, that age up almost same time but with 2 barracks training stronger Jan or they can train abus. Much better than single war hut toma. Also the map is quite big for travois to walk so far.

What I can tell in my groups are always joking who team Haud is like 2v3 or 3v4.

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The army for Haud is pretty OK. The problem is that they lack eco choices.
5 villagers and hunting dog: that’s all. Dancing healer is a joke in supremacy, and fishing boom has been nerfed a lot. They’re easily out-boomed by any opponent, and they’re forced to play rush/timing push etc.

Haud actually has decent eco in treaty: raising cows, 10 extra healers, but they’re hardly available in supremacy. Even for a 20-minute game, these are still too slow.

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For skirm, musk rider and light cannon I think they are ok.
But others I don’t think is fair under same cost with Haud worse eco.
I would only say that Haud is fast rush but unit strength is not ok.

As I said, what Haud has better unit they still got nerfed to the same or lower strength, this is funny. Seems everything for them need to be worse.

If Haud units strength are ok, means we put same number toma and musket to fight, the result would be fair. But obviously toma would not win this fight due to 20% less range attack and slower initial attack.
This will be Haud BO issue if they are still considered strong.

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That’s not the reason at all. Back to TWC ages both kanya, toma and aenna had much worse stat than now. Toma has been buffed 3-4 times these years, and they’re quite available now. You have warchief aura and 4 upgrades for this unit.

Imagine toma has 23 base attack, but Haud don’t have a warchief and fast age up, and colonial 15% infantry upgrades. Do you think it will be better?

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All native civs are just dumb like that. Farm and estate techs improve both farming and natural resources. So to improve hunting or mining we need firstly make a farm or estate.

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Also need to turn back same initial attack speed, this is important.

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I guess that was the reason for farms travois cards to exist but since nobody uses them I propouse that the first farm/estate has a discount to make it easier

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For people who think Toma is same as Musk, this is Toma with WC aura vs general Musk.
1.
Toma 165 HP 19 attack, Musk 150 HP 23 attack.
Musk needs 165/23=7.17=8 shots to kill a Toma with WC or 150/23=6.52=7 shots to kill a Toma without WC
Toma needs 150/19=7.89=8 shots to kill a Toma.
So WC is not a bonus to Haud, it is debuff to Haud, means if you lose WC, your army is worse than normal under same cost, you have to keep WC alive to remain same quality as general unit.
2.
Musk is instant attack but Toma need animate.
below is video without controlling any unit.


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As we can see, Toma gets damaged already when they are still proceeding animate, this means every attack they are slower than Musk. This is especially serious when player microing their units back and forward, everytime Toma was being attacked first.

Both figure and actual play are clearly showing Toma is weaker than general Musk under same cost.
This is ridiculous when their eco is also much worse than normal civ.

If rush is considered strong, should nerf their rush speed/timing. Plus other reasons listed in the first post, these make Haud is totally trash in team game.

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After 2 months I found something is ridiculous when I was playing Haud again with my friends.
I am not going to create one more post again so I put the video here.

Can we call this balance? I laughed when people still saying Haud is strong.
I tested this for 3 times, Uhlan won 2 twice.

Kanya horseman cost 100f 75w = 100/0.84+75/0.5= 269 villager time.
Uhlan cost 50f 100g = 226 villager time.
Kanya horseman cost 20% more.

If we are saying Hanya horseman lose against Hussar under same cost, that is still ok due to some units are strong and some are worse, although great balance team has already nerfed Haud most advantage to average.
Now Kanya horseman is more expensive but still lose, this is completely unreasonable with their weak eco.

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I am going to explain the idea of the design of the Kanya.
The Kanya is thought of as a cavalry unit that costs only food and wood. It has less HP and attack than a Hussar, but this is offset by two facts, firstly that the Kanya has more armor vs range, this means that it tanks shots better than a hussar, and secondly, if the Haudenosaunee WC is close, the HP boost does similar.
Other advantages of Kanya, it has high multipliers vs. Artillery and in the final stages of the game, when it is fully upgraded (and if we add a plaza with 10 priests), it is much better than a British Hussar (more HP, more attack, more speed) and its only real drawback is its cost in wood.

In short, the Kanya is balanced, well thought out and well designed.

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From the main post I have calculation already, Kanya only have 8 HP more from range attack than Hussar, which is almost nothing. For WC aura, due to speed is not same, WC is not possible to catch up cav always and WC aura should not be a negative to the civ as toma situation.

For counting artillery, Haud has no range anti-artillery until age 4. they should have better counter than other civs while their musket rider was also nerfed.

Plus for Kanya to get close artillery, they only have 8 HP more for resisting range attack, from melee they are much weak than a normal cav, means they need to lose more than other civs from dealing artillery.

For short, they almost lose compared to the same type unit (may be some I didn’t find out, may be az coyote). For long term, their weak eco and weak military is not allowing them to stay until that time, due to boom civs will have outboomed Haud and aggressive civs have stronger units.

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To that I’d like to add that the fight above has no micro in it, NO building no hero no dance Kanyas are good tbh

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For micro both of them can micro, so test without micro is fair, and result is 1:2.
It is also unreasonable for Kanya to micro for cost 20% more. It is not 5% or 10% more.

Again Hero aura is not a negative to the civ.

So for using Haud, we require more micro, more technique , more control in order to make the civ get close to average?
No wonder why this civ has such low pickrate.

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Lowest pickrate, almost bottom tier above 1400 elo, requires more mirco and technique. still being considered balance.
*Not matter which elo range, they are the lowest pickrate.

In 1v1 they are even at such situation, totally trash in team game which I mainly play.

Btw I am not main Haud, just think this is not fair. Unlike OP civs ruin the game, UP civs without buff people just don’t use it, not affecting too much.

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