Haudenosaunee (Iroquois): In Concept and Practice

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
1

Ahoy,

It’s time for Northeastern America to get a little love. The Iroquois Warrior already exists in the Editor, and now it’s time to build up the rest of the civ to go with it.

Haudenosaunee:

iroq2

-Berries last 85% longer
-Fishing units generate 8% gold.
-Fortified Village replaces Castle.
-Fortified Palisade, Elite Skirmisher upgrades free.
-Fortified Villages spawn 3 Berries, TCs spawn 1 when built.

Team bonus: Trade units +3/4 Armor.

This ideation presents the Wolfclan Raider, a variation of the Eagle Warrior that has lower pierce armor but more hit points, and a small anti-archer bonus.

Wolfclan Raider Stats

Cost: 30 F 45 G. Upgrade Costs same as Eagle Line.
Wolfclan Scout:
Hit Points: 45 Attack: 4 Speed 1.1 Armor: 0/1 Train Time 40

Wolfclan Raider
Hit Points: 65 Attack: 6, +2 vs. Archers, Speed 1.15 Armor: 0/2 Train Time 35

Elite Wolfclan Raider:
Hit Points: 80 Attack: 9, +4 vs. Archers, Speed 1.3 Armor: 0/3 Train Time 24
Attributes not mentioned here are the same as the Eagle Line

Unique Units:
Mohawk Vanquisher:
Warrior

Warrior with a recharging ability to capture (convert) enemies at Melee Range. Does no damage when capturing, but fights normally while capture ability is recharging. Ignores Faith and Heresy.

Mohawk Vanquisher Stats:

HP:80 Speed: 1.05 Attack: 9 Armor: 0/2 Bonus: +2 Vs Eagles, +2 Vs Buildings TT 15S
Recharge Time: 30 S, Converts in ~2.5 attacks.
55 F 30 G

Elite Mohawk Vanquisher: (Upgrade 800 F 450 G)
HP: 90 Speed: 1.05 Attack: 11 Armor: 1/3 Bonus: +2 Vs Eagles, +4 Vs Buildings TT15S
Recharge Time: 25 S, Converts in ~2 attacks. Neither version can convert buildings.
55 F 30 G

Mantlet:

Mantlet

Slow moving siege unit that launches multiple spears with a small anti-archer bonus, and can be used to scale walls when adjacent. Units behind the Mantlet take 1/2 damage from ranged attacks.

Mantlet Stats

HP: 185 Speed 0.8 Attack: 4 (3 Spears), +2 vs. Archers, +2 vs. Cavalry Archers. Armor: 0/8
Range: 7 Reload Time 2.0 Does not garrison, but units tasked into it are dropped off on the other side when adjacent to a wall, like a siege ladder.
220 W 140 G

Fortified Village: Castle replacement that can also create villagers and functions as a dropsite.

Fortified Village Stats

Hit Points: 4200 Range: 8 Attack: 10 Cost: 325 S 325 W Build Time: 160. Other attributes same as a Castle.

Unique Technologies:

Lacrosse
Lacrosse598×871 96.7 KB

Tewaarathon: All units move and attack 10% faster.
500 W 250 G

Weapons Trade:
Upgrades Markets to Trading Posts, which fire arrows and work 25% faster. Allows training of Hand Canoneers at +10% cost.
400 F 400 G

Missing Units/Techs: Gunpowder and Cavalry related units/techs, Supplies, Siege Onager, Siege Tower, Galleon, Heavy Demo Ship, Stone/Fortified Wall, Architecture, Keep, Illumination, Stone Shaft Mining.

Visual Tech Tree Here (Download and zoom in to view fully):

Leader Names:
-Deganawidah
-Jigonhsasee
-Hiawathaa
-Tadodaho
-Sosondowah
-Gendenwitha

Campaign: Play as Deganawidah to form the Confederacy while defending against the Huron and other hostile tribes.

Wonder: Longhouse of Hiawathaa

Haudenosaunee Description:

The Haudenosaunee represent the Five Nations of the Confederacy, the Mohawk, Onondaga, Oneida, Seneca, and Cayuga. Their League was formed by the Great Peacemaker Deganawida, although the date of formation is uncertain. It may have been as early as 1142, although some think it may have been 1450 or later. Regardless of when the Confederacy was formed, this civilization concept represents the constituent peoples and cultures.
While the Haudenosaunee were too far south to have been the “Skraelings” encountered by Norse/Icelandic explorers, their architecture and units are at least far more South Inuit-adjacent than the existing American civilizations, and serve to give that area at least relative coverage in case an Inuit or Miꞌkmaq civ is never introduced. The Haudenosaunee were known for their longhouses, invention of Tewaarathon (Lacrosse), and use of seashells in Wampum as money and for other purposes. They were also famous for their “Mourning Wars,” wherein they sought to capture and assimilate enemies in order to replenish their own people who had died from warfare or disease.

The Haudenosaunee forage bonus gives them hundreds of extra food, although it is one of the slower food sources and in a vulnerable location initially. Free Elite Skirmisher and Palisade upgrades helps them defensively, and their unique unit performs well by capturing high value melee units. Fortified Villages are useful as a Castle-TC hybrid, which can train unique units as well as villagers, and is somewhat weaker than a Castle, but is built more quickly and more stone-efficient. The Imperial UT allows them to train Hand Cannoneers at a higher cost, but they also perform better than average thanks to their Castle Age UT.

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Sounds interesting imo

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Main problem with NA factions no wonder unless you made one up.

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the capture mechanic is too strong. 2 melee attacks=4 sek to convert knights and other units and that for a cost of 30g? can they convert siege too? or elefants? also the wolfclan raider dies to archers pretty hard i guess.

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I’m agree with you, it’s time to add them as new civ :slight_smile:

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Considering what happened in AoE3, this sounds too improbable.

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I don’t play AoE2, but this involves Native Americans.

I don’t know if you’re aware, but the villages created by the Haudenosaunee are notable as they’re smaller examples of the heavily-fortified cities that made up the Mississippians. This leans into the free Fortified Palisade upgrade, as the culture was very focused on defensive structures and designs. My AoE3 mod design for the Mohawk focuses on making them a turtling civ.

I don’t actually have a lot to say about this, honestly, but I do like the overall approach.

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8

Eh, this point is overstated with a lot of NA civs (also didn’t stop devs with Hun or Cuman wonders). Hisatsinom Wonder would be part of Mesa Verde or Chaco Canyon, Mississipians’ would be any one of the famous Mound structures. Haudenosaunee could be a special longhouse or meetingplace of the Grand Council. Heck, Mongols’ wonder is a big ol’ tent, (yes I know it was real historically) so I think we have a lot of freedom regarding what can constitute a wonder.

But, point taken, I’ll start adding wonders and leader names + campaign ideas with my civ designs.

I’m really not convinced that it it’s too strong without testing. Worse case scenario it plays out as a unit that is very strong in melee, but is still limited by its weakness vs. range (like the Urumi or Teutonic Knight). 4 sec sounds fast for conversions except that monks can do it from the safety of 9+ range, whereas this unit is extremely exposed to both melee and ranged damage while it’s capturing. They can convert eles, (since the game makes no distinction for this unit for conversion purposes) but not siege. Overall, countered with ranged units or any composition with a meatshield of expendable units, and constrained by being a Castle-trained infantry unit, which is off-meta overall.

I’m not nearly familiar enough with AoE3 to know what you’re referring to here.

Thanks. Frankly I’m only interested in designing American civs, which will include several more North Americans (Mississippians, a Pacific Northwest group, and possibly Taino/Carib and Mi’kmaq or Southern Inuit), so your input and expertise @AnaWinters is always valued. For some of these, finding names of Medieval period leaders will be particularly challenging.

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I wouldn’t bother with the Mississippians. You’d have more cultural resources creating a Neanderthal civ than you would in creating a Mississippian civ.
The PNW Potlach cultures are an interesting beast to tackle, civ-wise, and it’ll be difficult for you to find a name for them, as it was basically a series of tiny kingdoms each competing with each other despite sharing the same basic culture.
Mik’maq and Taino are a good choice.

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They changed native american civs because the originals had “problematic stereotypes”. I don’t know exactly how that works, but I believe your suggestion would fit this category.

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That isn’t why they made the changes tho.

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They did and they still do. I’m going to quote myself from the game’s Discord:

They tried to "update" the Lakota with a small rework, but ultimately the civ will remain a Westernized stereotype until the devs get the balls to upset the playerbase by doing a full civ rehaul from the ground up. The playerbase will hate the devs for a few weeks, but ultimately, if they took the time to make it well, the playerbase would eventually thank them for making something much more interesting and removing the European template from the two North American civs. Neither the Lakota nor the Haudenosaunee have much anything in common with the two civs present in the game, and a lot of it stems from the economies the two civs have - the Lakota should be 90% focused on bison and the Haudenosaunee should be establishing permaculture over existing natural resources. Neither culture had agriculture remotely resembling European, so the farm and estate building are just completely nonsensical and are simply European inserts so players can understand the civs better.

Changes are needed.

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I mean I wouldn’t be upset, I prefer that the devs did something like this. But it’s how they would approach it that would piss people off. If they say they want the game to be “more accurate” they’d rightly work on other civs too. The game is so damn boring when most civs follow the European template as you call it. Even the european civs need to have much bigger distinctions.

they are fairy tale inserts. In real life nothing like this estate existed lol, and we both know why it is in the game ;).

To sum up before you rage at me, I AGREE with overhauling Natives! But not solely natives. Overhauling needs to be done to many civs

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That’s kinda what it says when you start the game unless I’m misinterpreting.

The way the disclaimer in the game says it made me understand they changed the civs because they were hurtfully stereotypical towards native peoples, not because they were too similar to europeans.

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It 100% is because the two civs are made up of harmful stereotypes. There are legitimately people who think Native Americans are some sort of woodland elves who can talk to animals, and putting stereotypes like that in the game does nothing good.

But the two civs overall just need to be remade from the ground up - Both should be as different from the European civs as the Hausa and Ethiopians are, but instead, they’re the closest in design to the Europeans than almost any other in the game.

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They made the changes due to the political shit in the US at the time, the AoE3DE files actually still contain the original naming of civs/buildings if you look.
But they said they changed it to “be accurate”. If this was true they would have changed other civs, you see what I mean? And they decided to add purely fantasy things like the ‘estate’ not for accuracy but for blatant sensitivities

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They changed it because the tribes reached out. I’m sure if the government of Germany reached out and asked the game to rename them to Deutschland, the devs would comply.

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I mean, I still don’t see how this is ‘harmful’, but I take your word for it.

I mean, that’s not what they say in the disclaimer, so we can’t assume that unless we also assume the devs are untrustworthy and communicating with them is an utter waste of time.

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Please show me where this happened, seems pretty bad. also i am just a member of some european tribes and they dont listen to me :joy:

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this would be very correct to assume tho.