Hotfix Organ Guns are busted

I can speak for Dravidians vs Portuguese/Bohemians matchups. Dravidians have a tough time with Organ Guns and Hussite Wagons. Please note that I have played only one game as Dravidians against Portuguese and no games against Bohemians after the April PUP came out.

However, I have specifically tested Dravidians vs Portuguese/Bohemians on Arabia pre-patch several times. But why? Because Dravidian Light Cav sees more purpose in such matchups than elsewhere. It works well, at least for me, to use Light Cav (Dravidians) cost effectively against Organ Guns/Hussite Wagons.

Yes, in matchups against any Dravidian units except Mangonel-line. I’ve never used Mangonels/Onagers against OGs and HWs though.

Wasn’t this the case before? Guess, that’s why I don’t use archers and infantry (and Urumi Swordsmen) against OGs. Dravidians Champions with Wootzsteel are also not that effective, since they are not Champskarls.

Elephant Archers are also useless. Both HWs and OGs are like tankier Skirmisher-Rams, and you know how much damage generic Skirms deal to Ele Archers.

And Hussite Wagons block arrows, I mean they protect the units behind them from arrows. Both OGs and HWs have high Pierce Armour and deal high Pierce damage. So, more reasons to not use ranged units against them.

Yes, Cavalier/Paladins and Hussars work.

Dravidian Light Cav (with Wootzsteel) also works but will die pretty badly to castle fires and Halbs.

Dravidian Battle Elephants are weak - prone to conversion (Bohemians is a Monk civ), longer production time, poor mobility, no bloodlines and Elite upgrade.

Use your 25% faster-firing Skirms (against enemy Halbs) and position them close to your castle(s).

But let’s see how Dravidian Halbs compare with Portuguese and Bohemian Halbs. Both Portuguese and Bohemians have fully-upgraded Halbs.
In Castle, Portuguese and Dravidians have generic Pikes. In Imperial, Dravidian Halbs have a bit more edge than Portuguese because of Wootzsteel.
In case of Bohemians, their Pikes are superior to Dravidians in Castle thanks to their Civ Bonus (Spearman-line deals +25% bonus damage). Even in Imperial, Bohemian Halbs are better than many other civs’.

Organs guns now are unbeatable by archer and infantry civs without siege onagers. Bombard cannons might seem like a solution, but remember that Portugese have cheaper bombards with ballistics. I don’t see how I can handle these as Dravidians

Both Portuguese and Bohemians are gunpowder civs. For civs without good cavalry, countering HWs and OGs with generic gunpowder units is problematic. Hope these civs, especially Dravidians, get better options to counter OGs and HWs.

Dravidians

They have trouble dealing with siege units in general. Devs game them cheaper siege. But the problem still exists because of poor mobility. HWs and OGs are produced faster, move faster, and a bit cheaper and tankier than Dravidian siege units. So Dravidians siege units are actually inferior.

So, I would suggest the Dravidian player to use cheaper Onagers, Wootzsteel Light Cav and Elite Skirms in a combination against OGs and HWs. (It is still better if you raid your enemy in Feudal and manage to slow down your enemy from building castles.)

Your Elite Skirms will take care of Halbs. Onagers and Light Cav will help snipe OGs and HWs. And BBCs destroy castles.

You should have around 10 stables, 10 ranges and a couple of siege workshops, and slowly push with castles.

Bohemians don’t have good stables and ranges, but Portuguese. If you see Portuguese/Bohemian player go OGs and Cavalier, you may go Onagers, Elite Skirms and Urumis. Urumis are produced faster than your barracks units and are affected by Wootzsteel, but just use them only against Cavalry.

If you are in a stalemate with Portuguese in Imperial on Arabia - where the Portu player has safely hidden some Feitorias and has a castle very close to your castle - you have a bad luck.

In conclusion, Organ Guns and Hussite Wagons are deadly to Dravidians.
Dravidians answer to Organs and Hussites are Onagers and Light Cavalry which are quite inferior.
If the Mangonel-line doesn’t trade off better with OGs and HWs after the latest patch, Devs need to help these Infantry/Archer civs in some way and/or might consider nerfing Bohemian Spearmen-line and Portuguese Knight-line.

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an often repeated statement that is still false.
portoguese halbs and champs are not FU. missing squirres which is significant

now take organ guns in your arguments for dravidians and replace them with heavy scorpion.
i am sure celtish heavy scirpions would guve you the same amount of trouble elite organ guns do. scrops in mass work even better against hussar. they both die to siege onager (hotfix organs will still lose cost effectivly to onagers)

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They win heavy cavalry in every age in terms of pop and cost


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Malay BE won’t work against organ guns, but wow OP is making a fool of themselves by claiming they get shredded by heavy cav, camels or champions. Those are precisely the matchups where they shine.

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That’s interesting. Hey, I’ll admit, I was wrong here. I have played with them a bit and they always felt pretty weak to me. But maybe that was just my bias. I’ll test them out again and see if they work in real games.

However, the fact still stands that they aren’t great against halbs. They are the weakest against archers due to missing armour, and that low Pierce armour might make them vulnerable to the new OGs. But that’ll require some testing.

Can you share the link to that website where you can match units?

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This is a must-have tool
https://www.aoe2database.com/damage_calculator/en

Malay BE is one of the most cost-efficient unit in melee fight aganist non pike unit because of the cost reduction. Yes Malay BE is so bad againist pierce damage unit. I think new OG will shred Malay BE easily

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organ guns will shred malay elefants. but so do heavy scorpions, they have bonus damage against elefants after all. doesmt seem to me an relevant argument for hotfix being busted

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It is relevant because malay do get bombard cannons. Heavy scorpions are easily handled with those. Also, scorpions are much more vulnerable to onagers than OGs are.

So far, nobody has been able to tell me what malay can do against these new OGs, and I can’t think of a solution either.

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You go for your own heavy scorpions
Do malay have that? They sjoild work well against organs with the recently buffed pierce armor

IF not you are forced into mix of bombards, onager micro

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Portugese have cheaper bombard cannons with aquebus. This doesn’t work at all.

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Malay 2h trashman mass with onagera in the back will work well against anything.

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I feel like you don’t know the tech tree of malay or portugese. Please look at those first. Portugese have combos which will wipe that combo quite easily.

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You can keep doing this forever.

Civ A goes combo x
So Civ B goes combo y to counter x
But civ A goes combo z to counter y
So civ B goes…

Pointless

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No. Haven’t you been reading anything I’ve written?

There is now a Portugese combo that malay have NO response to. No combo will counter the Portugese combo. That’s the issue. I have described that multilple times. Did you not read it? Or did you not understand?

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Ports combo is very gold expensive.

2h trashman are not.
Its not just about deathballs.
1v1 the malay can draw out the game.

And teamgames have never been balanced anyway in this regards

Tell me what malay do agaiant mass bakista elefants?

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You want to draw out the game against portugese, eh? The same portugese who get feitoria? You know, the only civ who can produce an unlimited amout of all resources over time?

Portugese get gold discount on all units. But also, you only get trashman in the lategame, when you have enough floating food. But, portugese have extra strong and extra cheap HCs who will easily handle the trashmen. That is in addition to organ guns.

Explain to me why this is relevant, before I answer. If this is impossible, which it isn’t, do you think I’ll find it acceptable?

Ballista elephants were nerfed in the overhaul patch. Why do you think that is?

And for the record, there are at least 4 strategies that I can present. But that’s not really relevant here.

Malay have fully upgraded Arbalest with gambesons trashmen in front as a meatshield. And they have their own BBC to take out castles and OG. Arbalest are much cheaper to mass than OG, which cost more than 3x times more wood and +11 more gold, so Arbs are cost effective as a counter. Also Arbs have nearly double the rate of fire (Arbs fire every 2 seconds vs. 3.45 seconds for Organ Guns) and half the attack delay (0.35 seconds vs. 0.6 seconds for OG). So these kind of high DPS units can get much more shots off than the much slower firing OG. Getting more shots fired negates the higher attack stats of the OG. And if the archer unit has an extra civ bonus on top of that, like Longbowmen with Yeoman, the OG can’t get close enough to do damage. F.U. Longbows absolutely shred Organ Guns. BBC are useless against F.U. Longbows. Does that mean Britons need another nerf too? Obviously not.

Feitoria are a big investment which take some time to pay back in value and you really need more than one to take full advantage of them, but then the more you build, the worse off you will be in the short term in terms of available resources to make army. Meanwhile the enemy has invested those resources into more military and has the opportunity to push Portuguese back before the Feitoria pay back enough value.

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Just don’t follow these videos. They’re not ideal and they don’t depict real game situations. Its just some content creator posting these for fun and getting some views. He placed the onagers within the range of organ guns. In practice, Onagers have more range and shoot before organ guns move forward to shoot. This would have greater impact in larger numbers.

Except for meso civs, malay and dravidians, rest have +2 cavalry in castle age. Incas, Malay and Aztecs also get redemption monks. Dravidians is the only civ that will struggle, then again its because they’re bad, not because organ guns are OP.

Cavalier, hussar, probably even light cav with +4, onager, probably even eagles.

That would just make them even worse than hussite wagons. Why would anyone make them if they’re countered by cavalry, siege and one of infantry or archers? Portugese player would simply go for something else like Arbalest or hand canons.

Organ guns were broken in closed maps because of their ability to break walls and buildings while being very effective against cavalry units and siege. Most of these problems have been addressed - they’re weaker against knights compared to pre-patch version, mangonels are much more effective and they can’t break buildings anymore.
Nerfs should address the situations where a unit is OP and shouldn’t make a unit completely useless like hussite wagons.

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Again, you’re stuck on late game combos. Malay Battle Elephants work great in Castle age, where missing just +1 armor is not going to be that big of a deal compared to their huge HP. It’s going to be worse for them in Imperial age, so you can just pressure them earlier. The game is not all about Imperial age, and you have your tools earlier, much like Meso civs do. Late-Imperial has almost always been the worst place for Meso civs and nobody is saying they need buffs to their lategame, because their early game is that much stronger.

This only doesn’t work out on specific closed maps where you can safely boom and go up to Castle / UU more comfortably, and some civs struggling on these maps is fine too. Tatars are considered to be one of the weaker civs on Arena IIRC, yet I don’t think they need any buffs. I’m pretty sure Mayans are also considered one of the weaker civs on Arena, and they especially don’t need any buffs.

Civs having weaknesses is a good thing. Portuguese are incredibly generic up until Imperial age. Just don’t let Portuguese free boom into mass UU in late Imperial if you’re a civ that depends on closing the game out earlier.

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That was a really balanced reply. Yeah, I don’t want to tech into Knights when I’m playing as Britons (or ever, honestly. I hate that unit). But it seems that the game is pushing me into it.

No, they can just counter cavalry. I think that’d be fine.

Anyway, the hotfix is live already. I guess we’ll see what people think in a couple of months.