House side by side, to wall?

I can only imagine the frustration of devs of other AoE titles hearing the word successful next to AoE2, but it’s an objective truth we need to learn to accept. :smiley:

Edit: Not to create a straw man, if you spectate low level games of AoE2 you will notice a pattern of people building stone walls around their base to feel safe, and then go on to manage their economy until they have a fully upgraded 200/200 army. I have a 50+ year old acquaintance that still builds those walls and keeps managing his eco until getting bored, with most of the times not even finishing the game.

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That is true. Especially the “that’s why AoE3 is less successful than AoE2” reasons.

But in this case the reason makes sense to some degree.
You can have a lot of fun in AoE2 without micro but on pro level there is a lot to micro.
But that’s definitively not exclusive to AoE2 nor does it explain why AoE2 is more successful than AoE1/3/M/O.
I guess it’s a general AoE argument.

It’s a pretty easy claim to say that Age has a number of conflicting titles in the franchise. AoE 2 might be the most recognisable, but AoE 3 and even AoM or Online have their own playerbases (as you know!).

So what do the devs do? Do things “as they’ve always done it”, or do things differently because this is a new iteration of the franchise? Of course, the answer in my opinion should be contextual to each specific issue. There are better arguments for raising the zoom level by referencing past games than there is, say, for making the entire game 2D again (because the earlier titles were 2D). Right? This is an intentionally-extreme example, I know it’s silly. Don’t hurt me :sweat_smile:

Walling with buildings is something that came to early RTS games unintentionally (or at least, by necessity of the technology at the time). If walling is so critical to the success of combat, raiding, scouting, etc, then it should be re-implemented in a way that doesn’t rely on assumed knowledge.

“do it how they’ve always done it” isn’t a convincing argument on its own. Nor is knocking people for allegedly being franchise “outsiders”. You prefer walling, sure. But that doesn’t make it a necessary mechanic for a modern RTS in 2021.

Just to offer up some ideas, perhaps building houses could have two modes. One is putting them one by one, like they look now. Another could be to click-drag a connected line (or quad) of houses - like how walls work. If walling is something that necessarily critical to the intricacies of combat. I’m honestly not convinced (as you can tell). But that’s just me.

Regardless of the RTS game, regardless of the franchise (and I have years of playing a bunch of them), being stuck in the past isn’t a quality that appeals to me. I want a game to evoke the feeling of the franchise for sure, but individual technical or gameplay-based things that only exist because tech 20+ years ago was more immature than it is now? I want people to come up with newer, more modern solutions that don’t rely on people knowing decades of genre history.

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I’m not saying that AoE4 should not have new features. I am saying that removing the ability to block movement with buildings is the wrong new feature.

Walling with buildings should be included not because we’ve always had it. Rather, walling with buildings should be included because gameplay is better with it than without it.

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I’m not saying you’re saying that! You’re welcome to call it a bad feature, but that’s not the point I was responding to.

Why is it better? Because players have gotten used to doing it? Is that all? Are there not enough tools to play defensively, at least from what we’ve seen of the game? If there isn’t, is it possible that the game on release will satisfy that style of play?

To give you my answers so you know where I’m coming from: I’m not sure if there are enough tools to play defensively (for all factions, certainly), but there are tools. And if this is something that is lacking, I’d prefer that be built upon and expanded instead of resorting to something that was a thing 20 years ago.

I think I’ve been pretty fair in laying out my opinion in how I prefer games to move forwards. To defend a relic (edit - pun not intended) of old games’ physics engines in a brand-new game, I don’t feel like the reasoning is strong enough.

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The strategic depth of walling with buildings will be shifted to the planing of actual walls and towers, with the economic implications of having to build those structures.

I see it more as a style change than a loss of depth. Maybe it’s just a matter of getting used to.

The only thing that seems to be gone is quick-walling. Personally, I won’t miss it, but I can see the point that it’s an important skill in AoE2 competitive play.

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If we look at the trailers this already seems to be the case. Buildings not only seem to be easily torchable, but they are set on fire and take damage over time.


So imo even if they made buildings “wallable” previous aoe players will be surprised to find that they made one of the worst possible defensive/economic decisions in the game.

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I find myself needing to put a bit less thought into building placement, and so buildings lose a bit of their purpose. Where before I could do something with houses now they are just sort of something I need to stuff somewhere. The physical distance between buildings also spreads out my base visually, which hurts vision. This is its own problem independent of the zoomed in camera, which itself exacerbates the problem.

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It might make room for buildings being used to create choke points rather than full walls we dont know yet. I agree it sucks for us guys used to it, but at least there will be some thought for ur buildings (Unless ur like mongols)

Enemy is full melee u create choke points and put ur ranged in there

All civs require thought in building placement now. (lots of landmark buildings have aoe effects you need to put other buildings under)

But you will have to find that out in release I guess.

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If you’re trying to wall early, just use palisades. What’s the problem?

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I’m content with walling with walls. If building health and spacing is balanced appropriately, buildings should still function as soft choke points that can filter enemy units into killzones or delay them as they stop to make a wider hole, and that would be ideal in my mind.

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Problem is that palissades are bad, waling means losing :smiley:

Really? I found them to be just the right amount of strong in the early game.

Think about it!

When you wall whit house, only one side is exposed to enemy. ( 2 side if it is a corner)

if you can’t wall house, it mean that every side of the house can be attacked by enemy.

It is like a 3- 4 time faster to break house.

A palisade wall is useless, it do not even slow down enemy, just a paper wall for frim.

No one ever build palisade wall in aoe, because it is useless and cost precious wood that is needed for units.

I don’t quite agree. Of course palisade walls are useless against castle and imperial age units but to defend yourself in dark and feudal age I think they do their job pretty well.

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Maybe you are not playing at a competitive level, in closed beta after a win streak in quick play, I started playing strong opponent, there was no palisades.

The fact that you cannot connect a palissade to a building makes them so bad.

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Nah.

They actually work really well to close off flanks, especially between forests.
Just because you couldn’t figure out how to make it work, doesn’t mean that other people didn’t. :man_shrugging:

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They work exceptionally bad when trying to connect them to a castle or allied defenses.

its hard to tell honestly where they stand considering people at most have around a week of experience with the game.

Metas haven’t really materialized fully. And its clear that balance is still being worked with.

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