and every pro agrees that siege nerf - were good.
THATS NOT A POINT. Jesus Christ do you even understand what we are saying here? China needs a maasive buff to be competetive! Nerfing siege without buffing china = BAD BALANCE. Simple as that.
2 Likes
why?
If all pros agrees that China trash and agrees that seige hase to be fixed.
Omg. Cherypicking Pro opinion only if its convenient.
Ok. Name one pro that says china is viable. Couse Grubby and beastygt put them on thras can. Anyway i think i will be taking a major break from the game its too frustrating for me with the recent balance changes. Best of luck anyway to you guys, hope it will be more fun to you 
2 Likes
HRE easily hits imperial age in 12 mins lol such a joke. How does China compete with that?
Why so you can save 100 food 2 times?
By the time you’ve aged up and got the imperial academy you’ve already got 2x IO… so whats the point in them being cheaper?
I’m not proposing replacing their functionality now. We can keep the double taxing tech, and allow it to produce IO at half the cost, on top of reducing the cost of all secondary landmarks (e.g. -50%).
That saves you 150 food for 2 IO and 200 food+100 gold for the landmark, and saves production time on the TC, and you can probably afford the IO earlier.
Stronger, faster, longer ranged “gunpowder” meaning as a whole, better gunpowder than other civilizations,
The repairs cost no stone, you fail to hear any message that opposes your rage. Spewing fallacy and incoherence while threatening to “stop playing” until you in particular get your way is not useful to anyone. Good take a break, you need one
Relax, there’s no need to be bitter xD
Well this is what all ppl on forums wanted. They wanted china to become unviable civilization with no viability and only reason was that they lost to chinese player who had 10 bombards and something else and they blame bombards instead of their own shortcomings.
I have heard some claiming that its not fun to play against +30 bombards or some other ridiculous unit comp and I can say as someone who played china for +1300 games in 2v2. I NEVER saw anyone making such unit comp. Closest I could say was HRE + Mongol. HRE with about 15culverins and same amount mangonels from mongol and only reason why it worked was because it was mongolian highs and they controlled all passings. I can say in fact that I see more ppl spamming mass knights, longbows, elephants, camels more often than I see more than 10 bombards in one game (by mass I mean 30-60 same units or 10-20 bombards or elephants)
Chinese identity and strength was supposedly be gunpowder so obviously they would want to make firelancers, handcannoneers, bombards, nest of bees and grenadiers.
So now lets look at these units
Firelancers - Nerffed and meant to be raiding unit but 1800 resources at castle age for simply raiding unit is too much and not worth at all
Handcannoneers - only range tech available and worse than Rus variant, also was nerffed in first or second patch
(Clockwork) Bombards - Nerffed and IO nerf made making these unviable option. Sure add them with normal ones
Nest Of Bees - Inferior version of mangonel and bugged and not been fixed for months and thanks to IO nerf hard to get meaningful amount
Grenadiers - Too expensive to get majority of game and only unit thats not been butchered. Still very slow and slow animation, but can deal good amount of dmg and currently looks like borderline viable fallback for chinese civ and only properly viable at low elo games where ppl just boom for 45mins and let china get away with everything so better nerf this unit
China making bombards, FL, NoB, Handcannoneers, grenadiers is no different from english doing spears, lb, xbow, MAA or french going for archers, knights etc.
The main problem is that ppl don’t like to counter siege with siege. Nerf was unneeded at this point. Instead they should’ve made counter play for siege. Following could’ve helped ppl to be more comfortable facing siege
Horsemen new upgrade for imperial age in academy is “anti siege ponies” decreases siege dmg by 20% and torch dmg against siege by 10. With this it would’ve given horsemen cheap use in imperial age and them being fastest horses by longshot would have let them quickly catch up with siege and to counter this China or any siege set up would’ve needed spears and this would’ve been SUPER easy to adjust. Ok horsemen take too much dmg lets buff dmg reduction to 30%.
All horses gain 10 more torch siege dmg as default
5 Likes
Hit the nail on the head
1 Like
Telling other people having shortcomings and the nerf was unneeded even though 100% of the pros said that Siege(Chinese Bombards especially) are bonkers is propably the biggest LOL I have read on this forum.
You must be delusional.
Being able to spew out 3 Bombards with 720HP(later 980ish) from one “Workshop”(Clocktower) while others have to build 3 Siegeworkshops to get the same amount but worse was just ridiculous.
Saying people “dont like to counter Siege with Siege”. I mean, i dont have any words for it if you cant see the problem.
10 Chinese Bombards were so tanky, you would have needed 4 Culverins ( if you have access to them) or 8 Springalds to oneshot one before they got repaired while Bombards two shot springalds in return.
And your arguement that you see other Civs spamming mass Knights/Longbows/Camels.
Yeah wow, no wonder: These Troops are way cheaper, available earlier and those Civs are not Chinese.
3 Likes
Plz check out Burgrave Palace. Acts as a Barracks that produces infantry 5 at a time, super mma. Will anyone choose it?
I have some doubts, can you help me out?
Why are monasteries and monks half price in Delhi? And there is no limit to the number of monks to speed up production? Why Delhi still has free tech?
Why doesn’t Mongolia have a population cap? No houses are required, which saves them 900 wood. Not having a university also saves 300 wood. The sheep on the pasture won’t run away when unguarded? they produce normally now.
Why does France have tech discounts, building discounts? Don’t even need military discounts on tech and landmarks? why Guild Hall has free resources? Why does Royal Knight regenerate health in feudal times?
Why can Ross get gold by hunting? Why players can get free gold and food from High Trade House?
Why HRE has three of the best economic landmarks, Aachen Chapel, Regnitz Cathedral, Palace of Swabia?
England? It really sucks, and the current win rates prove it.
Why does Abbasid have a bonus for eating berries? Just because they would not hunt boar? Boars are not spawned around TC, but berries are. Why did spearmen attacking‘s range longer in feudal times?
Why can’t you see these bonuses? Which of the above is worse than Chinese? Sieges require a lot of resources and are more expensive than the unique units below, Royal Knights , Abbasid spearman, HRE super MMA, Arbalétriers , Streltsy, Longbowman, etc.
You need to have enough economy to have a sieges military advantage, others not.
A castle landmark that relies on limited unique economic units is too powerful?
10 Chinese Bombards, do you know how many resources are required to add technology? 11500, about equal to a spectacle.
6 Likes
And what are those pros saying now? Chinese is trash tier. Why is it trash tier?
- Clockwork nerf
- IO nerf
So how did the nerfs on the patch go? Pretty poorly for every chinese main out there. Main point of ppl had that they didn’t like to go siege vs siege and wanted more counterplay to siege even tho they asked nerf. Would it be so bad if they buffed horses against siege and gave horsemen imperial age anti siege upgrade?
I would say no.
Then what pros were saying about china? Only good in closed maps. Now where is china now? Not good at anything. All those who cried on forums didn’t want balance they wanted china to get butchered because they lost a game or games in TG’s because they let china get away with everything.
And fact still is that China was never top tier civ outside of 3v3 and every other side they were worst or middle of pack
You don’t even know HOW many times I have heard this. Every player tries to make this argument and everytime I say this same thing.
True chinese bombards had 950 hp with ming and around 850 without ming. And yes you needed 8 springalds or close to it insta kill 1 bombard, but here is the part that NONE OF YOU nerf defenders say or cant even agree on
Microing 10 bombards to kill 10 springalds is several times harder task than microing 10 springalds to kill 1 bombard. All you have to do is right click see bombard die and micro back which even further stresses bombard micro.
10 bombards need to be split to groups of 2-3 (3 to secure insta kill) to kill springalds and if they’re constantly microed back and forth with shorter reinforcement distance and cheaper / faster production it means you can overwhelm bombards easily and stress chinese player multitasking several times more than just right clickin your ponies.
I have seen how many players have used this against me and I can tell its never fun from my perspective. While my micro isn’t pro level I still try to split bombards to kill right amount of bombards and its extremely hard to overcome and lot of times match could’ve ended in favor of my opponent.
Then the fact that previous patch all chinese siege came from clockwork tower. Now ask yourself. Where was clockwork located? 99.99% inside chinese base. How long it took them to sent one bombard to frontlines? 10seconds? 20seconds? 30seconds? 40seconds? All depends on map size and larger the map is, longer it took so the production was never 3x +50% bombard hp = 4.5x but less than that. Now its less than 1.5x production
Im not saying that doing changes was bad idea but how it was done was complete and utter bs. They nerffed civ to unplayable while providing mongols, delhi buffs?!?!?!?!?!?!?
2 Likes
I am not disagreeing that China is in a worse state before. I mean, nerfing them you can expect they go down in winrate.
Should they have received buffs somewhere else? Yeah, pretty sure they should have.
But dont try to deny their Siege was a problem.
1 Like
Only problem for ppl who disliked it and those who liked siege battles it wasn’t.
Fact is that they try to justify nerf on something because they want to remove one dimensional unit comps yet EVERY other civ does 1-2 unit comp and nothing else.
I see lot more french knights, longbows, MAA spammed than siege spammed purely
Again, Chinese could spam it due to the IO and their Bombards being tank af.
Comparing this to basic units is just unreal. I mean, what do you want? No units?
When your opponent spams Knights, well you have an easy game, just go spears and you are done.
And seeing the streams and Forum/Reddit 99% of the people hated the siege.
1 Like
Only if the knights wanted to fight head on. Spears won’t do anything unless you can force them to fight you head on which requires you either wall half of the map and hope that they wont just go through your walls and go around your spears
And against bombards you just overwhelmed them either with cheap units or springalds or finish china before they got to imp age.
Well, if the Knights just run around and you place your Spears near you eco you dont even need to wall and still win.