True that adds even more. No wonder Franks are still a top winrate civ.
helps that they can pump out knights so fast and research cav and paladin so dang fast due to chivalry.
literally one trick pony and still canât be stopped.
Franks are one of the strongest civ because of the great Eco bonus and cheap castle.
For high elo games you can easily use castle for great map control.
Low elo games easy scout rush to destroy enemy Eco and win early the game.
Throwing axeman is an amazing combination to protect your strong Knights for pikes.
Magyars are stronger early game because of the best scout rush ever. But mid and early imp they are nice but thatâs it. Thatâs why in high elo games they gonna lose. High elo games the enemy can protect themselves easily against scout rush.
Camels are not even close to as strong a counter resource wise as you seem to believe against Leitis, especially in imp. See the below SOTL video. Camels are arguably supposed to be the hardest counter in the game to Leitis since they are actually a bit faster than Leitis. Halbs are a good counter to Leitis, but canât keep up so their efficacy can be limited against basic army compositions. That leaves mass monks as the only hard counter to Leitis which at lower elos is almost a non option. And Lithuanians can easily mix in hussar. All this means Leitis are now the hardest to counter unit in the game, especially in imp. Again, that doesnât make the civ overall op, but it shouldnât be gg just because you mass some Leitis. Camels do need a slight buff against them. And most civs donât even get camels.
Spirit of the Law - Extremely hypothetical situations including equal resource fights (which should never happen between castle and non castle units, and Equal number fights (which should never happen between castle and non castle units).
Seriously. if youâre fighting 10 Heavy Camels with 10 Elite Leitis, the Heavy Camel player has already screwed up. there is absolutely no reason why a unit made out of the stables, isnât superior in numbers to a castle unit, unless you are already behind.
and yet people use halbs against knights quite effectively, and do so all the time, despite being slower.
also Archers are much better against Leitis then they are against Paladins.
archers say hi.
yeah no. just because you rely on spirit of the laws extremely hypothetical 10vs10 fights that should literally never happen, means nothing.
Camels beat Leitis.
good thing you got archers, pikes, and camels.
camels already beat them cost effectively, sorry youâre flawed video means nothing to me.
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Yes they can be hard to counter in large numbers, but that could be the same case for Mangudais, Chu Ko Nus, Plumed Archers, War Elephants, Cataphracts and even Boyars in the same case.
The thing is you shouldnât let the player to get castles and Relics in the Lithuanian case to start with. and any other Top player (Even TheViper) is complaining about the power of the Leitis.
so go ahead. nerf the Leitis.
just remember that before the Leitis buff, the civ was sitting at 38% winrate, and now barely breaks 50%.
so when you nerf it, make sure you buff Lithuanians elsewhere.
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There needs to be a way to see someoneâs elo on this forum. Steam accounts are linked so it shouldnât be that difficult. Your opinion and discussion is welcome and appreciated, but these arguments are flawed.
Leitis are created extremely quickly now from castles and you can easily mass just as many leitis as heavy camels with just a castle or two. Just because someone can make 15 stables doesnât mean they have the resources to produce from all of them. Your production is generally not limited by the number of buildings, but your resources. Yes resource efficiency matters, especially in pop capped games. A lot. Do you not understand that losing expensive units to inexpensive ones means your opponent gains a resource advantage? Again, Leitis are considered op in imp, not in castle because food is practically useless in imperial while gold is what matters. Did you watch the entire video? Itâs literally more efficient to sell food at bottom market prices and make leitis now than it is to just make hussar with food. Youâre basically arguing that all castle units arenât viable because you need a castle to make them. This is rediculous. Obviously, it takes an investment to make a castle and you may temporarily be vulnerable, but in exchange you get strong units and map control. And most games you transition into castle units after making something else which makes an investment into castles easily viable. If youâre playing games in imp and you still havenât thrown down any castles to get map control you clearly are not very experienced with the game. The argument is that lithuanians are too one dimensional if their win condition is always, âget to imp with a couple relics and there is literally nothing the opponent can do.â They need to be more balanced so that imperial age is more interesting.
Mobility is huge. Iâm not having this argument.
There is a difference between hard and soft counters. Archers do not hard counter leitis. Skirms hard counter archers because skirms are trash units that beat archers (gold units) 1v1. Elephants are hard countered by monks becuase elephants are the most expensive units in the game and all those resource and hp can not only be lost, but given to the other team, this is why elephants arenât op. leitis on the other hand are practically trash units now because of how resource efficient they are. Monks counter leitis, but not nearly as well as elephants. Iâm not arguing that Leitis have no counters whatsoever. But Leits literally have no viable hard counter. Every possible counter is not nearly as strong as typical counters for other units.
pikes arenât mobile. you canât leave your base with pikes if there are leitis on the field. you will be defending and behind the whole game.
archers and camels arenât counters anymore to leitis. archers again have the mobility issue. leitis have the same pierce armor as knights. are you telling me archers hard counter knights??? paladin are rarely viable in 1v1. letitis are much easier to get to.
camels. watch the entirety of the video I already posted. camels trade equally with leitis in terms of both numbers and gold. they are by definition not a counter.
Final point: the fact is, if you have a unit that can deal out this much damage and has no hard counters it is incredibly easy to mix something in as lithuanians to completely destroy everything your opponent can make.
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coming from the guy using 10 v 10 fights with camels vs leitis.
Elite Leitis are made only 4 seconds faster then camels.
so unless you only have 2 Stables by the time you get to the late castle age, youâre not being honest.
no, but someone in the late castle age would have 3 stables alone.
agreed, good thing Lithuanians have one of the worst long term ecos in the game then huh? means pretty much every camel civ can outdo them.
i agree resource efficiency matters, which is why you shouldnât be talking about 10 v 10 fights that should literally never happen between a castle and a stable unit.
yeah, and the Leitis costs 70 food and 50 gold. the camel costs 55 food and 60 gold.
and again, if you canât out marshal your opponents leitis with camels in imperial age, youâre doing something wrong.
false. its the combination of castles + 70 food that makes them hard to even start mustering until at least late castle. i canât think of a single UU that costs as much food that sees regular use in the early castle age. but the fact remains that you should always have better production then someone making units out of a castle.
very strong units that lose cost effectively to pikes and camels.
except there is plenty of options. youâre just lieing about how they interact with camels and pikes.
sure. so you donât mind proposing a counter buff to Lithuanians right after you nerf the Leitis?
do you deny then that people donât use pikes and halbs against knights despite the fact that knights have a mobility advantage?
in that case why donât i see you complaining about CKN, Mangudai, and Plumes?
funny i see people leave their base with pikes against knights all the time.
assuming a 10 on 10 fight. which should never happen. stop using flawed analysis.
it has hard counters. pikes and camels.
but go ahead. nerf the leitis. jsut make sure you buff Lithuanians elsewhere. they were a 33% winrate civ pre buff and sit at 48% now at the highest level.
even in team games they barely break 50%.
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because all three units have hard trash counters with skirms, are countered with siege onagers and can be 50/50 with cavalry depending.
Man, youâre continuing to argue that castle units arenât viable because you have to spend resources to make a castle. AGAIN, castle units are something you transition into. Your other units gain map control and buy you time to get castles down and start making your op unique units. If youâre going fc + unique unit on arabia as lithuanians you already lost the game. Everyone already knows leitis arenât strong until imperial. No one is going fast imp as lithuanians. There will be gameplay before that point with other units before the transition. For the last time, letitis are objectively op in imperial with no hard counters which makes the civ completely one dimensional which negatively impacts the playability of the game. Iâm not getting trapped in your circular argument game.
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As i said. go ahead and Nerf the Leitis.
just remember that before the Leitis buff this civ was winning 33% of their games at the highest level, and isnât breaking 50% yet.
so when you nerf the Leitis? go ahead and buff them elsewhere.
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I didnât say to nerf the leitis. I literally said their uu is their identity and they should still be strong. A better solution is to slightly increase the gold cost again, slightly reduce the food cost just to prevent them from being the abusive trash unit they currently are. Also, buff camels to be resource and pop efficient specifically against leitis.
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and this is still a net nerf, because as you said, in the imp age people are more concerned with gold in imp, not food.
so it costs more gold, which means its not trading as favorably, and that means that youâre getting less out of the unit, and youâre less likely to win.
that is indeed a nerf.
which means when a civ isnât even breaking 50% and youâre nerfing part of that civ, itâs going to need a counter buff to maintain winrates.
so again. whatâs your proposed counterbuff?
if you increase the price of the leitis, that resource trade in that hypothetical video you like to reference? slants more in the Camels favor. already accomplished.
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EXACTLY. This is what @MatCauthon3 doesnât understand
increase gold costs.
trades less favorably in cost efficiency, means more resource losses and more likely to lose.
more likely to lose means more losses.
win-rates go down.
now that win-rates go down, i want your proposed counter-buff to maintain Lithuanians win-rates.
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I think Leitis need a pierce armor nerf for sure. Maybe even 0 pierce armor. Iâm fine with a lower cost and their effectiveness vs. other melee units if melee is the Leitisâ only specialty. And the Lithuanians still have several strong options vs. archers I donât see players often use, probably because the Leitis is so strong already.
I think Lithuanians ought to lose their Dark Age bonus too, and replace it with a minor military discount, so that their military cost efficiency is basically their economy bonus, like the Magyars. Because as I am told, a powerful Dark Age bonus is in the upper tiers for âA reason for why this civ is amazing.â And starting with 175% more food sounds strong to me!
Unless the cost is changed to something like 50 food 35 gold, no one will ever make a 0 p.armor cavalry. Changing them to 0 default p.armor and adding Tower shields benefit to Leitis is fine though.
This will make them too weak in 1v1 unless thereâs a good military discount applicable to aggressive units. But again it will become a repetitive discount because we already have civs with cheaper knights, light cavalry, cavalry archers and crossbows. Magyars are more versatile with their military and are a better civ in imp, so its not a fair comparison. The +150 food is good but not OP, plenty of civs get bonuses that help them have extra resources and still have good military units in late game.
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Question about letis. Assuming you are in a late game scenario with multiple castles, where letis should shine.
If you are vs britons/mayans, would you go letis or paladins? My feeling is that knight-line performs clearly better vs archers.
Overall, if you want to nerf Lithuanians, I would say that you should remove the paladin before killing the letis. We know that often, once a unit is nerfed, it is completely killed (SL, Karambit, condos, organ guns).
So, if you really want to nerf Lithuanians, at least leave them uniqueâŠ
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Buffing/nerfing Leitis is little different, because they start as underppowered unit (to expensive) and were later buffed. So Devs know, what is the nerf limit (price-wise) so they dont overnerf them. I hope.
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easily gonna go paladins vs them, its easier to mass up, and they have higher health and more pierce armor.
the same devs who nerfed the steppe lancer into the ground?
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