Catas aren’t designed to wreck Leitis though.
Catas are designed to beat Infantry, and anything that has bonus damage to cavalry.
the point is that the Cataphract is arguably stronger then the Leitis, because it can literally wreck most normal cavalry counters, without taking much damage. whereas yeah, the Leitis will still beat Halbs and Camels, but only in low numbers.
100% agreed. with all upgrades researched the only good counter to the Cataphract is archers, and even then you’re going to need a lot of them.
People rely on that video of Leitis taking equal resource fights that SotL made, but i bet Cataphract would win way harder then Leitis does in those videos.
just ran a test. 10 Elite Cataphracts vs 10 Heavy Camels. 7 Elite Cataphracts left after combat.
Elite Cataphracts also passed the 12 halb vs 10 Cataphract test, without losing a single unit.
when i doubled it to 24 halbs they still won with 5 cataphracts left.
the leitis on the other hand got shredded.
Where did i wrote that they should ‘wreck’ leitis? Losing that hard is not acceptable given Leitis should win vs heavy armored melee civs and not the ones lacking armors upgrades.
A cool idea would be to give every melee unit like 2 anti leitis armor, 2nd blacksmith upgrade gives +1 but the last one removes 3 or 2nd armor blacksmit removes 1 and last removes 1. But i haven’t thought about this really.
FU Elite Cataphract is a lot stronger against Halbs and stronger against infantry than Elite Leitis thanks to reducing Anti-Cavalry bonus damage and a huge bonus damage against Infantry on top of trample damage but even with same numbers Leitis easily beats Cataphracts and that is pretty obvious with the huge damage difference.
15 Leitis without relics vs 15 Cataphracts --> Leitis win with 10 Leitis alive.
Equal resources 21 Leitis without relics vs 15 Cataphracts --> Leitis win with 19 Leitis alive.
15 Frank Paladins can beat 15 Cataphracts with 9 Paladins alive.
That shows that a good counter against the FU Elite Cataphract is FU or +FU powerful Heavy Cavalry like Paladin, Leitis, Bojar and Konnik. But Byzantines can add their own cheap halbs to the fight so I agree that large numbers of archers with some meat shield are a good way against Cataphracts.
even paladins win 1v1 vs halbs and the halbs don’t start winning until there is at least a 2 to 1 advantage. this is true of all heavy cavalry.
the Pike line is a COST EFFECTIVE not SUPPLY EFFECTIVE counter to Heavy Cavalry.
yeah let’s just turn the unit into complete trash.
its almost like Leitis is an anti armored unit and the Cataphract is an Anti Infantry unit. so that sounds like its working as intended.
We are talking about leitis winning vs cataphracts.
Not really, they would be similar to knights as you get the same armor against them, but if you want to go heavy melee defense, the leitis will shine so leaving as they are currently would be fine.
which they are designed to do. complaining about leitis beating cataphract would be like complaining about skirms beating archers. leitis are an anti melee unit through and through. they don’t do so well against archers or camels or pikes.
really? every other occasion?
they are harder to mass and Lithuanians have arguably the worst eco in the game overall.
they are weaker to archers then paladin.
they still get shredded by camels and pikes.
man if only there was a way to deny them from getting relics.
Ive always seen Leitis as Lithuanian Camel - more universal and overall stronger, but harder to mass. Looking at them this way, it will be logical that Catas will have some resistance to Leitis attack.
Of course, it is just idea, absolutly unnecesery one.
10 vs 10 fights against camels and 10 vs 12 fights against halbs. That shouldn’t happen with a castle unit. literally the only situations where the should happen is i am already ahead of you as is. because either you have 1 stable or barracks for each castle i have, or one of us is waiting between engagements. literally only way to get equal numbers.
Spirit of the law is the master of hypothetical situations that just shouldn’t happen.
And also let me put it further.
In that video 10 heavy camels killed 10 elite leitis with 4 camels remaining.
That means the leitis player lost 500g and 700 food. His total production time was 180 seconds before conscription assuming 1 castle.
The camel player lost 330 food and 360 golf and his total production time was 220 seconds before conscription assuming 1 stable
So the leitis player lost 370 more food and 140 more gold.
Also I would like to point out the production time. What was the Lithuanians player doing during that 40 second time difference? Not making units? Unlikely. So how did they tar stables you have an equal numbers fight?
Either the lith player didn’t commit fully to the fight and should have another 2 leitis thrown into the equation (40 seconds is 2 leitis, assuming no conscription), or the camel player has at least 2 stables. If he has 2 stables he puts those 10 camels out in 110 seconds. But wait. Now the camel player has to wait 70 seconds to engage the leitis players 10 leitis? He could easily pump out another 6 camels in that time!
Or if he engaged the leitis player who only has 6 leitis out?
So in all cases we have uneven fights! Either we have 1 castle and 1 stable and 12 leitis vs 10 camels.
Or we have 1 castle and 2 (or more stables) and have 10 camels vs 6 leitis or 16 camels vs 10 leitis. I’ll be right back after running those tests and give you the results!
so 10 heavy camels vs 12 elite leitis (with 2 relics for all these).
10 leitis left alive. (but again, in this situation i literally have 1 castle for every stable you have. HOW?)
16 heavy camels vs 10 elite leitis.
no heavy camels died.
10 heavy camels vs 6 leitis.
no heavy camels died.
I thought you said these were cost effective against camels? the only way that happens is if i outmass you!
Usually i would read whole thread but i dont much time right now. So ill try to sum up my experience with leitis and liths overall(its important to understand how leitis fits in). I have probably 300-400 games on liths i played them on all patches. My point of view will be based on 1vs1 and mainly map arabia but ill talk about area as well. at release
knights,leitis,lightcav up to +5 dmg 1st lith change
liths no longer gain extra dmg on hussar line and their relic dmg is capped at 4 note: quite huge deal hussars were ofc broken but now in case of getting 5 relics paladin no longer 3 shots fully upgraded halb. this patch killed their op potencial without any conpensation. 2nd change
tower shields now grants +2 instead of+1 pierce armor on halbs and skirms and cost is reduced by about 40% leitis now cost 50gold and 70 food.
Liths tech tree all upgrades in blacksmith with exception of last infantry armor that and no supplies makes their champ bad option to chose while halbs are fine cause of tower shield tech.
lacking arbalest means they can open with archers just fine but need to switch before imp CA lack parthian tactics so i wouldnt go for this option in imp either. however liths have gunpowder so in need of ranged anti infantry unit they can make HC. Their stables are full except camels.
Sadly their siege is garbage only ray of light is BC option no siege engineers either other than that university is missing only arrowslits.
So now lets talk about 1vs1 arabia scenario. Dark age: you can go for instant drush but its guite hard to pull off droping food and you are probably hitting their woodline at time you go for boar. downside is so little of scouting your map.
Neat strat but ussualy you play standart openings feudal age: they can go for every opening +150 food helps but no direct military bonus so in case of nice map drush FC might be your best friend. castle age: you could go for mangonel monk defense and boom but you would have hard time getting relics (you dont need relics in every game if you think its good idea go for it) so i would advise to go for knighs or xbows as your default options. andtry to get relics and map control. Super late castle or imp now is your time to shine you might have few relics and one of best trash in the game food cost of leitis is not big deal and if you get at least 2 castles its good option especialy fact you safe so much resources and time to geting elite leitis. your poor siege might slow you in your push but other than that its hard to stop trash spam + some godl options like HC,BC,paladins or leitis.
overall arabia rating is A tier
Its all great but how much times you will get to imp especially post imp on arabia so i would´t say litis is broken in here. on arena its different story good uptimes + faster monastery is great for relics and your late options may shine in here i would even go as far as calling them S tier civ might be my bias and they are only better A tier
yeah the civ that has potentially the weakest overall eco in the game, and is currently sitting at 47% at the highest level (and has never broken 50% winrate), and rarely sees use in tournaments is an S Tier Civ…
btw i dont think they are op i think they are just fine maybe bit op in team games (they are picked quite alot even by pros on pocket) but im not experienced enough in teamgames to judge that.
just to add more fuel to the fire… what is the camel player going to do with the remaining camels? they are so bad at doing anything except fighting cavalry, the camel owner would kind of need to train other units in order to attack/raid
as opposed to the leitis (similar to the paladin issue) which can more effectively be spammed in endless number and can either (almost) counter its own counter, or raid the opposing economy…
Doesn’t matter. You’re now ahead. Prepare for the next engagement to come. Lithuanians are pretty all in on cavalry for the bulk of their army so odds are youre camels will still be useful.
Literally never seen pros complain about this being an issue. Nor with pikes or skirms.