@Tgaud
Why speak about balence in this case -_-.
Really I never seen anyone so dishonest. Your argument is only resonates authority, i hope you won’t be beta tester.
@Tgaud said:
again modiftying attack rate will just break the unit.
the unit is weak against cavalry on 1v1.
its weak enough against composite.
just modify acceleration of the unit is enough to rebalance it against hit and rundont break the game please.
CA was part of the charm
I don’t understand how slower attack rate would “break” chariot archers. That would just make them weaker, which is a necessary change. And every unit should be weak against something and strong against something. CAs are beaten by cavalry and composite bowmen as they should be. In turn CAs are good against infantry. If you make hit and run harder they would become weaker against the units they are supposed to be strong against, while keeping them rather strong against the units they should be weak against.
@Tgaud said:
no one care about your 1v1 progamer thing
again : go find another game.
no one care about hugh competitive here.
age of empire is designed for epic team games. no korean or vietnamese 1v1 progaming.
Its not THIS kind of game.
go play chess
It seems you have misunderstood what kind of game AoE is. 1v1 competitive gameplay is perhaps the most important to get right and a great number of players care about it.
I think that CAs should be support units and should be kited to be effective. My solution, briefly…is to add a half second firing animation.
This is different than changing their damage or rate of fire because their initial attack is slowed, even after a unit enters their range (which is different than immediately firing and then having an decreased rate of fire). This also makes them effective against infantry when kiting. They should not be able to just stand there and attack in a ball.
I don’t think we should remove CA ability to kite or make hit and run, I think we should make them more vulnerable to natural counter-units like other archers and cavalry. I think it would make sense to make all chariots slower than cavalry since it’s the difference between a horse and a horse pulling a cart. I also think we should consider removing some of the CA’s range to make a bigger distinction between them and other archers.
We should consider allowing the CA to retain their demi-horse archer abilities but allow them to be countered by other units.
@Raw1812 said:
I think that CAs should be support units and should be kited to be effective.
I don’t know… It’s true that this is their role in vanilla ror (apart from also being good as a straight up massing unit). But I feel this gives them a identity crisis given that we also have horse archers; who feel like a more natural fit for this role.
Something needs to be done about the CA anyway because they currently dominate the metagame. And IMO they also need a unique purpose that is not identical to the HA. My suggestion, which I think fits with the idea and visuals of a chariot, is to make them a sturdy front line archer that can reposition faster than foot archers. So lower their speed (make them slower than cavalry; but still much faster than infantry) and lower their attack range, this is to somewhat limit their harass options and make them commit more to engagements. In return, give them more hp and pierce armor - their new role is now to deliver short range front line fire while being sturdy enough that only a dedicated cavalry/melee push can break them. They should be able to cost effectively deal with enemy archers if they can get in range - but archers like Compies will have much longer range and should be able to bombard them from afar if defended by a front.
With this change each of our mounted archers have a unique role:
- Elephant archer: Slow speed, Very sturdy, Long Range → Slow impenetrable wall of ranged support, can’t escape from anything
- Horse Archer: Fast speed, Weak, Long Range → Harasser & combat kiter, must avoid damage to be effective
- Chariot Archer: Medium speed, Sturdy, Short Range → Sturdy front line archer, must commit against anything but infantry in order to attack (cavalry outruns them, archers outrange them)
I think that implementing the Upatch changes to CA ( slower attack, slower training ) and maybe increasing the cost a little bit and decreasing the HP ( to make them vulnerable to foot archers ) should be more than enough.
@GepardenKalle said:
@Raw1812 said:
I think that CAs should be support units and should be kited to be effective.I don’t know… It’s true that this is their role in vanilla ror (apart from also being good as a straight up massing unit). But I feel this gives them a identity crisis given that we also have horse archers; who feel like a more natural fit for this role.
Something needs to be done about the CA anyway because they currently dominate the metagame. And IMO they also need a unique purpose that is not identical to the HA. My suggestion, which I think fits with the idea and visuals of a chariot, is to make them a sturdy front line archer that can reposition faster than foot archers. So lower their speed (make them slower than cavalry; but still much faster than infantry) and lower their attack range, this is to somewhat limit their harass options and make them commit more to engagements. In return, give them more hp and pierce armor - their new role is now to deliver short range front line fire while being sturdy enough that only a dedicated cavalry/melee push can break them. They should be able to cost effectively deal with enemy archers if they can get in range - but archers like Compies will have much longer range and should be able to bombard them from afar if defended by a front.
With this change each of our mounted archers have a unique role:
- Elephant archer: Slow speed, Very sturdy, Long Range → Slow impenetrable wall of ranged support, can’t escape from anything
- Horse Archer: Fast speed, Weak, Long Range → Harasser & combat kiter, must avoid damage to be effective
- Chariot Archer: Medium speed, Sturdy, Short Range → Sturdy front line archer, must commit against anything but infantry in order to attack (cavalry outruns them, archers outrange them)
I agree with this.
@GepardenKalle said:
@Raw1812 said:
I think that CAs should be support units and should be kited to be effective.I don’t know… It’s true that this is their role in vanilla ror (apart from also being good as a straight up massing unit). But I feel this gives them a identity crisis given that we also have horse archers; who feel like a more natural fit for this role.
Something needs to be done about the CA anyway because they currently dominate the metagame. And IMO they also need a unique purpose that is not identical to the HA. My suggestion, which I think fits with the idea and visuals of a chariot, is to make them a sturdy front line archer that can reposition faster than foot archers. So lower their speed (make them slower than cavalry; but still much faster than infantry) and lower their attack range, this is to somewhat limit their harass options and make them commit more to engagements. In return, give them more hp and pierce armor - their new role is now to deliver short range front line fire while being sturdy enough that only a dedicated cavalry/melee push can break them. They should be able to cost effectively deal with enemy archers if they can get in range - but archers like Compies will have much longer range and should be able to bombard them from afar if defended by a front.
With this change each of our mounted archers have a unique role:
- Elephant archer: Slow speed, Very sturdy, Long Range → Slow impenetrable wall of ranged support, can’t escape from anything
- Horse Archer: Fast speed, Weak, Long Range → Harasser & combat kiter, must avoid damage to be effective
- Chariot Archer: Medium speed, Sturdy, Short Range → Sturdy front line archer, must commit against anything but infantry in order to attack (cavalry outruns them, archers outrange them)
There is already slingers for archer vs archer role. Not a bad idea to make an other unit of same style, but would be nice to see more than movement speed difference between them. Right now this sound like an upgraded version of slinger.
I support the idea, but the current implementation wouldn’t be good enough for the game.
Needs to be created something that Slinger has, but CA do not have.
Let’s just play the updated game and the Upatch before jumping in and proposing mass changes to a much loved unit. The Upatch changes seem sufficient to me.
@pate623 said:
@GepardenKalle said:
@Raw1812 said:
I think that CAs should be support units and should be kited to be effective.I don’t know… It’s true that this is their role in vanilla ror (apart from also being good as a straight up massing unit). But I feel this gives them a identity crisis given that we also have horse archers; who feel like a more natural fit for this role.
Something needs to be done about the CA anyway because they currently dominate the metagame. And IMO they also need a unique purpose that is not identical to the HA. My suggestion, which I think fits with the idea and visuals of a chariot, is to make them a sturdy front line archer that can reposition faster than foot archers. So lower their speed (make them slower than cavalry; but still much faster than infantry) and lower their attack range, this is to somewhat limit their harass options and make them commit more to engagements. In return, give them more hp and pierce armor - their new role is now to deliver short range front line fire while being sturdy enough that only a dedicated cavalry/melee push can break them. They should be able to cost effectively deal with enemy archers if they can get in range - but archers like Compies will have much longer range and should be able to bombard them from afar if defended by a front.
With this change each of our mounted archers have a unique role:
- Elephant archer: Slow speed, Very sturdy, Long Range → Slow impenetrable wall of ranged support, can’t escape from anything
- Horse Archer: Fast speed, Weak, Long Range → Harasser & combat kiter, must avoid damage to be effective
- Chariot Archer: Medium speed, Sturdy, Short Range → Sturdy front line archer, must commit against anything but infantry in order to attack (cavalry outruns them, archers outrange them)
There is already slingers for archer vs archer role. Not a bad idea to make an other unit of same style, but would be nice to see more than movement speed difference between them. Right now this sound like an upgraded version of slinger.
I support the idea, but the current implementation wouldn’t be good enough for the game.
Needs to be created something that Slinger has, but CA do not have.
Slinger is cheap but weak, and counters archers and walls heavily due to bonus damage. My suggerstion was not to make the CA as the slinger - they have no bonus damage against archer or walls and they have a lot more health. My suggestion was to make them as a sturdy front line archer, an archer with short range but high health that can survive for long on the front line, but with only medium speed so cavalry would be able to reach them if they tried to run.
@GepardenKalle said:
@pate623 said:
@GepardenKalle said:
@Raw1812 said:
I think that CAs should be support units and should be kited to be effective.I don’t know… It’s true that this is their role in vanilla ror (apart from also being good as a straight up massing unit). But I feel this gives them a identity crisis given that we also have horse archers; who feel like a more natural fit for this role.
Something needs to be done about the CA anyway because they currently dominate the metagame. And IMO they also need a unique purpose that is not identical to the HA. My suggestion, which I think fits with the idea and visuals of a chariot, is to make them a sturdy front line archer that can reposition faster than foot archers. So lower their speed (make them slower than cavalry; but still much faster than infantry) and lower their attack range, this is to somewhat limit their harass options and make them commit more to engagements. In return, give them more hp and pierce armor - their new role is now to deliver short range front line fire while being sturdy enough that only a dedicated cavalry/melee push can break them. They should be able to cost effectively deal with enemy archers if they can get in range - but archers like Compies will have much longer range and should be able to bombard them from afar if defended by a front.
With this change each of our mounted archers have a unique role:
- Elephant archer: Slow speed, Very sturdy, Long Range → Slow impenetrable wall of ranged support, can’t escape from anything
- Horse Archer: Fast speed, Weak, Long Range → Harasser & combat kiter, must avoid damage to be effective
- Chariot Archer: Medium speed, Sturdy, Short Range → Sturdy front line archer, must commit against anything but infantry in order to attack (cavalry outruns them, archers outrange them)
There is already slingers for archer vs archer role. Not a bad idea to make an other unit of same style, but would be nice to see more than movement speed difference between them. Right now this sound like an upgraded version of slinger.
I support the idea, but the current implementation wouldn’t be good enough for the game.
Needs to be created something that Slinger has, but CA do not have.
Slinger is cheap but weak, and counters archers and walls heavily due to bonus damage. My suggerstion was not to make the CA as the slinger - they have no bonus damage against archer or walls and they have a lot more health. My suggestion was to make them as a sturdy front line archer, an archer with short range but high health that can survive for long on the front line, but with only medium speed so cavalry would be able to reach them if they tried to run.
@“Mystic Taboo” said:
Let’s just play the updated game and the Upatch before jumping in and proposing mass changes to a much loved unit. The Upatch changes seem sufficient to me.
This is what will happen of course because that is the purpose of the DE. But IMO that is a mistake. There are many cool units in aoe1 that do not see much use at all because they are too similar to other units. CA and HA are also so similar that their style of play domminate the metagame and is one of the few tactics we see used. In my opinion a few units, like the CA, should be rebalanced so that we see more unit diversity in actuall games.
@GepardenKalle said:
@pate623 said:
@GepardenKalle said:
@Raw1812 said:
I think that CAs should be support units and should be kited to be effective.I don’t know… It’s true that this is their role in vanilla ror (apart from also being good as a straight up massing unit). But I feel this gives them a identity crisis given that we also have horse archers; who feel like a more natural fit for this role.
Something needs to be done about the CA anyway because they currently dominate the metagame. And IMO they also need a unique purpose that is not identical to the HA. My suggestion, which I think fits with the idea and visuals of a chariot, is to make them a sturdy front line archer that can reposition faster than foot archers. So lower their speed (make them slower than cavalry; but still much faster than infantry) and lower their attack range, this is to somewhat limit their harass options and make them commit more to engagements. In return, give them more hp and pierce armor - their new role is now to deliver short range front line fire while being sturdy enough that only a dedicated cavalry/melee push can break them. They should be able to cost effectively deal with enemy archers if they can get in range - but archers like Compies will have much longer range and should be able to bombard them from afar if defended by a front.
With this change each of our mounted archers have a unique role:
- Elephant archer: Slow speed, Very sturdy, Long Range → Slow impenetrable wall of ranged support, can’t escape from anything
- Horse Archer: Fast speed, Weak, Long Range → Harasser & combat kiter, must avoid damage to be effective
- Chariot Archer: Medium speed, Sturdy, Short Range → Sturdy front line archer, must commit against anything but infantry in order to attack (cavalry outruns them, archers outrange them)
There is already slingers for archer vs archer role. Not a bad idea to make an other unit of same style, but would be nice to see more than movement speed difference between them. Right now this sound like an upgraded version of slinger.
I support the idea, but the current implementation wouldn’t be good enough for the game.
Needs to be created something that Slinger has, but CA do not have.Slinger is cheap but weak, and counters archers and walls heavily due to bonus damage. My suggerstion was not to make the CA as the slinger - they have no bonus damage against archer or walls and they have a lot more health. My suggestion was to make them as a sturdy front line archer, an archer with short range but high health that can survive for long on the front line, but with only medium speed so cavalry would be able to reach them if they tried to run.
So what is the weakness of the chariot? If they can outrun foot soldiers and have pierce armor they seem strong unit. Especially if they can get armor from storage pit.
EDIT:
If they can’t win fights against archers why would you then use them? Foot archers can take down enemy foot soldiers.
@pate623 said:
@GepardenKalle said:
@pate623 said:
@GepardenKalle said:
@Raw1812 said:
I think that CAs should be support units and should be kited to be effective.I don’t know… It’s true that this is their role in vanilla ror (apart from also being good as a straight up massing unit). But I feel this gives them a identity crisis given that we also have horse archers; who feel like a more natural fit for this role.
Something needs to be done about the CA anyway because they currently dominate the metagame. And IMO they also need a unique purpose that is not identical to the HA. My suggestion, which I think fits with the idea and visuals of a chariot, is to make them a sturdy front line archer that can reposition faster than foot archers. So lower their speed (make them slower than cavalry; but still much faster than infantry) and lower their attack range, this is to somewhat limit their harass options and make them commit more to engagements. In return, give them more hp and pierce armor - their new role is now to deliver short range front line fire while being sturdy enough that only a dedicated cavalry/melee push can break them. They should be able to cost effectively deal with enemy archers if they can get in range - but archers like Compies will have much longer range and should be able to bombard them from afar if defended by a front.
With this change each of our mounted archers have a unique role:
- Elephant archer: Slow speed, Very sturdy, Long Range → Slow impenetrable wall of ranged support, can’t escape from anything
- Horse Archer: Fast speed, Weak, Long Range → Harasser & combat kiter, must avoid damage to be effective
- Chariot Archer: Medium speed, Sturdy, Short Range → Sturdy front line archer, must commit against anything but infantry in order to attack (cavalry outruns them, archers outrange them)
There is already slingers for archer vs archer role. Not a bad idea to make an other unit of same style, but would be nice to see more than movement speed difference between them. Right now this sound like an upgraded version of slinger.
I support the idea, but the current implementation wouldn’t be good enough for the game.
Needs to be created something that Slinger has, but CA do not have.Slinger is cheap but weak, and counters archers and walls heavily due to bonus damage. My suggerstion was not to make the CA as the slinger - they have no bonus damage against archer or walls and they have a lot more health. My suggestion was to make them as a sturdy front line archer, an archer with short range but high health that can survive for long on the front line, but with only medium speed so cavalry would be able to reach them if they tried to run.
So what is the weakness of the chariot? If they can outrun foot soldiers and have pierce armor they seem strong unit. Especially if they can get armor from storage pit.
Calvalry. And archers if they can shoot them from afar. My idea is to make the Chariot Archer slower that it is now (so it can’t run from cavalry, only run from infantry), and make it have shorter range (so it must comitt more to battles). In return give them more HP and pierce armor, so they are sturdy enough to stay on the front lines supporting other units. Horse Archer is the harraser, make Chariot Archer the sturdy front line archer. It fits with the idea of a chariot and with how they look.
Chariots don’t have pierce armour as far as I recall.
@“Mystic Taboo” said:
Chariots don’t have pierce armour as far as I recall.
They don’t, but someone here suggested giving them some. I don’t think they should have pierce armor added, as that would make them too hard to counter.
@“Mystic Taboo” said:
Chariots don’t have pierce armour as far as I recall.
i mentioned pierce armor because:
@GepardenKalle said:
…So lower their speed (make them slower than cavalry; but still much faster than infantry) and lower their attack range, this is to somewhat limit their harass options and make them commit more to engagements. In return, give them more hp and pierce armor - their new role is now to deliver short range front line fire while being sturdy enough that only a dedicated cavalry/melee push can break them. They should be able to cost effectively deal with enemy archers if they can get in range…
And this is exactly the job of a slinger. Good against archers, but too low range to deal the damage if enemy has melee front line. Only difference is that slinger is melee, has much less health and wont get armor from storage pit upgrades. The damage to towers isn’t buff that would be good enough to pick slinger over CA.
Slinger will win against CA? If so then it would be the only thing why i would train slinger over CA.
@pate623 said:
@“Mystic Taboo” said:
Chariots don’t have pierce armour as far as I recall.i mentioned pierce armor because:
@GepardenKalle said:
…So lower their speed (make them slower than cavalry; but still much faster than infantry) and lower their attack range, this is to somewhat limit their harass options and make them commit more to engagements. In return, give them more hp and pierce armor - their new role is now to deliver short range front line fire while being sturdy enough that only a dedicated cavalry/melee push can break them. They should be able to cost effectively deal with enemy archers if they can get in range…
And this is exactly the job of a slinger. Good against archers, but too low range to deal the damage if enemy has melee front line. Only difference is that slinger is melee, has much less health and wont get armor from storage pit upgrades. The damage to towers isn’t buff that would be good enough to pick slinger over CA.
Slinger will win against CA? If so then it would be the only thing why i would train slinger over CA.
The point is not to make them like the slinger. Slingers are weak and cheap, they hard counter archers and walls due to bonus damage. Notice what I said about the Chariot Archer in my suggestion: “their new role is now to deliver short range front line fire while being sturdy enough that only a dedicated cavalry/melee push can break them”. So Medium speed (slower than cavalry, faster than infantry), short range (must comitt), high hp (sturdy enough to stay on the front line, unlike other archers - including the slinger).
@pate623 said:
And this is exactly the job of a slinger. Good against archers, but too low range to deal the damage if enemy has melee front line. Only difference is that slinger is melee, has much less health and wont get armor from storage pit upgrades. The damage to towers isn’t buff that would be good enough to pick slinger over CA.Slinger will win against CA? If so then it would be the only thing why i would train slinger over CA.
Slingers get more bonus damage against mounted archers in the UPatch and will most likely get in the game as well. This together with the fact that slingers take only one damage per shot from CAs after bronze shield means slingers will probably win against CAs if they can get in range.
Can’t quote you 
This forum wont let me.
You said they could deal cost effectively against archers if they get in range.
So can the slinger, but if you try to go Slinger vs Composite bowman you can see that those slingers will die before they get in range to deal any damage.
with CA you can go to the range and then kill those archers?
Even if CA won’t come a head as strong as slinger does against archers CA would still be much better choice to take. Slingers can’t deal effectively against melee unlike CA. All units whose counters CA will counter slingers even harder.
What possible usage would i have for slinger? Tower and wall destroying isn’t good reason to pick it.
If there is not to many CA, you can counter them with camel rider, or even cav. If there is already too many, it will be difficult, so you will need CA or composite bowmen to counter. If you don’t have these, pray that your allies do.