I tried playing Spain through archaic soldiers and it seems to me that this is a losing option. Endless confusion between the rodeller, crossbowman and lancer. All three need to be improved, especially the rodeller (750 resources, a support unit costs a lot). Spray the economy on the tree. Manage to use spies too. Send a bunch of cards somehow. There is no space on the deck. It is difficult to manage the army.
A complete pain in the ass.
On the other hand, you can play one unit - the musketeer. Which improves with just two cards. You don’t have to make a skirmisher at all. Spam only musketeers and falconets and you win. Ideal micro. A bunch of free cards for the economy.
Very unbalanced.
On the second screen it is a mix of musketeers, brigadiers and fusiliers fighting vs longbowman and some kanyas. Absolute dominance. I didn’t even need the lancers. And finally I manage to send the unction. Which does not happen in the game through archaics, there are simply not enough shipments.
Very strange logistician. His bonuses only work in the late game after 50 minutes. At age 1 there is nothing to send except endless crates. So instead of 700 crates I should spam 300 crates?
In general, archaic tactics do not work. This is something on the level of the Mayan revolution. Very long, dangerous and completely ineffective.
The best archaic combo for Spain is rod+lancer but it’s full melee…
I understand your frustration, Spain is poorly made since vanilla and they have patched it giving it good and bad things that some have synergies and others don’t.
Reworking some units would be enough…
And to fix this they simply added another card for even more damage. So Spain already has Unction. But it TURNS OUT that it’s not enough, so we’ll throw in another 20% damage. 20%, Karl!
Then it turned out that the Imperial Musketeers shoot at 72 damage and this turned out to be too much, so we will lower it by 10% for the Musketeers.
After 20 years, it turned out that melee tactics do not work in their game. Surprise ############!!!
I haven’t even talked about team cards yet. All Spain can give the team is a falconet and a heavy cannon. Because no one plays halberdiers, pikemen and crossbowmen.
What deck are you using? How are your teammates playing? You should hit age 3 by about 7:50 (or earlier) and have some heavy infantry trained to then push with team 1 Falc (three falcs is almost worth an age 4 card). After that push, you can send another 2 Falcs to either continue the push or defend the counter push. Use the falcs and other units to kill someone’s town.
I have a suspicion that you’re playing sub-optimally again and blaming the civ. Admittedly, Spain isn’t the best in 3v3, but it’s very much playable, and extremely solid in 1v1 (although not really my cup of tea).
Also this is a bit technical but archaic usuallt refers to pike and bow only. Rod lancer isnt an archaic combo albeit I know what you mean its an asthetic choice.
I just love them , but I see where to use them so as not to accidentally lose the fight.
What I meant was to use units that are affected by all three Archaic Combat cards.
And if I refuse them - my results are much better. I very often see Spain with all three cards for archaic combat, But for the whole game he did not build a single crossbowman, tercio or rodelero. Because of the situations where this is more profitable building musketeers and skirmishers. Every 9/10 games.
It was a rush. Surely Spain could have made a rush through the xbow/pike? He thinks not. “I WILL SEND CRATES AND BUILD ENDLESS MUSKETEERS.”
And by the way, he did the right thing.
The problem is that players who take 3 Archaic Combat cards don’t end up using them.
By the way, these are all statistics of won fights, not lost ones.
I have 4 cards that improve crossbowmen. I have papal guard. I have team upgrades. And none of this works. I have to play like Japan in a full selfish deck. (by the way, after 2000 hours of play, I found out that Japan has this card)
I did a crash test of the archaic combat in harsh conditions. There was no clear result because one of the players apparently died during the match… But nevertheless, in a 3vs4 battle it doesn’t work well enough, and where do you get all this wood? (What if I also played through tercio?)
In general, there is no synergy. Inserting three cards only for the sake of one single rodelero. When you can take economics instead of them, I do not see the point. It is only good for age 2 rush to buff the xbow/pike army by 15%.
Explain to me for Spain who to beat the following armies with:
Skirmishers + Dragoons + Cannons
Skirmishers + Heavy Cavalry + Cannons
Musketeers + Heavy Cavalry + Cannons
Jungle Bowmans + Spearmen + Chimu Runner
Cannons + Halberdiers
Janissaries + Abus Gunners
Carolines + Leather Cannons
Full Limit Grenadiers
Full Limit Giant Grenadiers
Full Limit Samurai
Full Limit Cuirassiers
Full Limit Jaguar Knights
This is a comparison of fast melee units from different civilizations, for the improvement of which the civilization has three cards for +30% damage and HP. Mexico is an exception, but everything works great there anyway.
It seems to me that everything here is obvious and does not require additional comments.
I wouldn’t say that I’m happy with all of them.
I absolutely disagree with the fact that the Dutch Halberdier deals less damage to Musketeers, Jaguar Knights, Mantlets, Highlanders, Zouaves and other Halberdiers/Samurai/Landsknechts. It’s stupid. Lazy design in a hurry. There should be a modifier only for light infantry. ( I can imagine how funny their fight with the rodelero would look, where they pick at each other for 5 HP damage)))
Yes I know that Insurgente is out of the game after age 3 unless Mexico revolutionizes Yucatan and Maya. But I needed his Imperial variant for comparison. I think that it is possible to combine Jungle Warfare and Mayan Supporters cards absolutely painlessly. (By the way! Maybe someone can show me what poison damage looks like in this game. I’ve never seen it. I shot from basilisks and nothing happened)
And yes, I know that the Jaguars are strong enough to compensate for the loss cannons. But I think they lack 10% of range armor for that.
But I’m already carried away, these are separate topics for discussion.
To understand what a rodelero is, imagine an oprichnik who has no damage to buildings and no damage to others. Just x5 modifier to vills. For fullprice.
His unique feature - 40% armor for 100 resources simply does not work. I assure you that even if you give him 80% melee armor nothing will change at all. From which we can conclude that the rodelero is a counter-melee mantlet. Which can kill a some horsemen. A highly specialized unit for fighting the Aztecs and Incas only.
It is also worth noting that the improvements to the characteristics of crossbowmen and pikemen, as well as the presence of a papal guard, do not work on Spain, because without steel bolts, a huge amount of HP and Armor like a normal skirmisher, the crossbowmen of Spain cannot show anything on the battlefield with their 16 range and 240 HP. They also don’t have as much access to wood as Malta or Italy.
TEAM Hand Infantry Attack and TEAM Hidalgos only works for Inca, Aztec and Mayan.
For all fans of the team falconet, I suggest comparing on the calculator the bonuses from team HP for all infantry or only heavy or only gunpowder or damage for all ranged infantry, or HP/damage for cavalry.
Team Ironmonger only makes sense for getting the Logistician bonuses. The discount on the barracks doesn’t solve anything at age 2. Only at 4 it can. In general, the Logistician has a crooked design. To use it, you need to drag all the cards from age 2 to age 1.
The team vision increase is pretty cool, but it’s not worth the entire slot.
As a result, team play is very limited, and the most upgraded unit in terms of cards is not universal. Such a SPECIALIST is hard to find in this game. He is even more limited than a pikeman.
What’s our rush?
Everything is very cool here! We have Unction, +15% damage +40% HP for hand infantry, +15% HP to crossbowman… Oh yeah. Not a single shipments of skirmishers or hussars. You’ll have to fight with a mix of shipmented pikemen/rodeleros and crossbowmen that you built at your own expense. While the enemy will spawn a limit of skirmishers and destroy your entire army. You can of course try to build hussars instead of crossbowmen, but keep in mind that in order to protect his crossbowmen from your hussars, your opponent only needs 5-8 pikemen.
So no xbow/pike. Only musketeer raids and crates.
For comparison with other normal civs. Maximum upgradeable infantry:
- low skirmisher/musketeer( elephants)
Yes, the same trouble has not bypassed Germany. But it can afford to throw corpses at the enemy with such an economy. Which Spain does not have. And Spain doesn’t have 18 range dragoons with 80 damage.
What’s going on with the Lancer? Maybe it more than compensates for all the shortcomings of the archaic infantry? Well, here’s the thing… He’s a little more expensive and a little less speedy. He has no damage compared to the Hussar. He can’t kill artillery either. He can’t fight other hand cavalry. The only thing he can do is kill musketeers, and only after the caballeros. So skirmishers kill musketeers more effective
Since he has more armor and HP than the hussar, he can also imitate a mantlet. This time against ranged damage.
Another mantlet without damage. Well, this one can at least kill infantry, though not hand ones)))
The final conclusion is the Unction, Peninsular Guerrillas and the Corselet. That’s all you need to play Spain. You can of course take all three hussar upgrades in case of mass organs or gatlings. Yes! It is HUSSAR and not lancers.
That’s all.
HAVE FUN!
Firstly, comparing JKPs with rods is rather silly. They’re very different units. JKPs are a bit overtuned because they’re designed to be a star unit in Aztecs’ roster. They also happen to cost more than a rod, and late game Spain should have a better eco.
The Halb comparison is less bad. Halbs are pretty much straight up better in a treaty-type game. But that doesn’t make Rods bad. In fact, if given the choice as Dutch I would 100% swap my Halbs for Rods in 1v1 Sup games (assuming upgrades received the change as well).
You’re undervaluing speed and the ability to train them in age 2. Rods are heavy infantry and hard-counter nearly everything able to catch them in age 2. Given how hard a well-executed Spanish FF can hit, many civs must stay age 2 to hold the push. If you see a fight you don’t like, run away.
Rods are also very good in combination with Skirms. If you’re enemy has Huss/Musk use your skirms to pick off the Musketeers and the Rods to keep the huss off your skirms. Don’t just run out and try to hit stuff until the battle is in your favor.
Early on, Halbs aren’t great. Their speed makes them easy to hit-and-run to death and they cost over 20% more than a Rod. In treaty, speed is less of an issue.
Lancers are great in Sup, and really good in treaty. In treaty (at least at a higher level) most civs are training nearly pure infantry +artillery and occasionally hand cavalry. Very few civs have highly pop efficient ranged cavalry. Musk/skirm is common so Lancers are mostly facing things they counter (outside of a few MUs).
From a lot of your pictures, it seems many of your Supremacy games are ending in age 5. This implies you’re playing too slow, with a slow, upgrade driven deck. Spain is a Tempo civ. It’s about going fast and killing the other civ before that civ can get out of hand. Even in Team Supremacy games you’ll want a somewhat aggressive deck. Some upgrades take way to long to pay off. You like showing pictures, so show the decks.
How masterfully you avoided discussing Insurgente, which is better in EVERYTHING than Roledero and 30% cheaper. For example, in raids. Roledero is useless in raids. I managed to kill only one settler with 10 Rodeleros, in those situations where I managed to kill 5 settlers with 5 Hussars and 15 Insurgente managed to kill 3 settlers.
Noticed something interesting? For some reason he doesn’t need the damage boost for the rodelero)
That’s what he did. He built 40 rodeleros and ran around the entire map without engaging in combat anywhere. He leave his allies into 2vs3. They lost half the map and all the TP. At that time, he did a Fast Imperial, came with imperial lancers against the guard armies and defeated everyone. He was lucky with his allies, who decided to crying and endure and did not resign. If you ask me why he didn’t participate in the battle, Well, because his enemy’s army consisted of skirmishers and musketeers only. By the way, he doesn’t have a single team card in 3v3.
Well, his playing is completely in line with what you’re saying. He built 40 rodeleros. Upgraded them to guard. And didn’t use them. And judging by his deck, he had no intention of doing so.
I compared heavy melee infantry with high movement speed and the same population cost. I could have taken a samurai instead, who has even higher speed than the rodelero, but that would not be right.
I very, very, very doubt that the speed of food production in Spain is higher than that of the Aztecs.
Hit with what? Specifically. Unit - quantity in percentage of the entire “hitting army”.
And what allows Spain to collect resources faster than the French, British, Ottomans, Portuguese and Dutch. I have now listed the civilizations that I play with in every game.
Why don’t I remove the three cards on the rodelero and just use the 63 damage dragoons?
I like your clarifications in brackets))) On my 1300 elo in the Treaty everyone except Swedes/Mexicans plays only skirmisher + dragoon. I emphasize, ONLY SKIRMISHER + DRAGOON. Nobody ever builds musketeers in the Treaty. He’s no use there.
Okay. I’ll tell you the situation I had. It was a 3v3 battle. Our armies met in the center of the map. Falconets/culverins are evenly divided. They have 80 skirmishers, 12 dragoons and 50 cossacks, we have 100 skirmishers, 20 hussars and 30 rodeleros. A fight begins and all 50 cossacks stupidly attack from the front. Our skirmishers retreat, the rodeleros remain in front and the enemy skirmishers kill them. The end.
Accepted. Spain should be played as Haud. The civilization is so weak that in an equal fight it has no chance.
Sup games have other considerations then just maxing out a unit. There is an idea call “trade-off” where you might not want to have something cause you lose on something else
If you are the main hand infantry in the team and your mates arent making any, then the card aint worth it compared to say another 4 vils cause eco is more important to you.
But if your teammate is aztec or inca, suddenly a rod + JPK & coyote or rod + chimmu is a very good comp and now the card is very much worth it.
again the offer to actually play people and not just things you show of other people is always open
cause its not like its always the best thing is it? again a thing call “trade-off”
not every game gets to the point where that is a thing and even in that case it might not be the best thing for you to do, either because of your team or because of the game state.
How nice of you to go for your high damage dragoon, very nice. opps your opponent went mass speed halb as dutch , or is inca or aztec or china and they melted.
Your team mate also decided to go goon cause they are port, and they will always go goon and they have better range then you, what now? double goon? now you are doubly dead to a mass skirm and hand infantry comp.
and some cards are niche, doesnt mean they are bad and doesnt mean that you or someone else might find them useful.
And just because the games doesnt go to age 5 will 5 barracks spam doesnt mean the game is a “rush” game or that spain is being played like haud.
Again the offer to actually play the game is open
edit: also there are also other civs for the team hand infantry to consider
Dutch - mass speed halbs with extra atk and rods with extra HP, very nice
German - dopps & rods make very nice combo
Ethiopia - shotels
French - if france goes native on hand infantry maps central plains with rattan shields or nootka then they are ultra buffed
Japan -samurai enough said
china - unless its all cav they will have hand infantry so go ahead
Insurgents are cheaper, but any investment you put into them basically goes away at age 4 unless you revolt and more importantly they get 1 shot by TCs (in age 2) and aren’t as pop efficient as rods. No doubt that they are decent, but they die easier than rods.
Hp is better for melee units than attack in general. Reasonable that he took hp and not attack (I never said “take all three every time). @coffeeco01 also made a great point about trade-offs and not needing to boost your mates’ heavy infantry if you’re providing it. As far as the rest of the deck goes, it’s not terrible, but could be better. I’ve played with similar decks in the few Spain team games I’ve done, but that was a while ago when I used worse decks. For a 3v3 team game, he should have had both 2 falcs and Team 1 Falc. Infinite 7 Lancers also would have been better than 300c. The issue with Spain in team games is that most buffs would improve them too much in 1v1 or Treaty (thus you leave them at “playable, but not great” in team to avoid damaging other modes).
No, I said kill them quickly. He used some tactics I brought up, but to very different ends. Btw, I think I’ve seen him play I think. I don’t remember him being bad at all. I’ve played with a lot better, and a lot worse. It does sound like there was some coordination failures on his team, though no telling whose fault that was.
Say what? Samurai have 4.5 speed with a +10% and a +5% aura for around 5.2ish. Maybe 5.6ish if I’m forgetting something. Rods have 6 +10+5% for 6.9 (if you’re even counting the upgrades).
2 Factories +99 Vills vs 99 vills, some of whom might be helping on the Plaza. In a 1v1 Aztecs will have a faster boom (if they choose to boom), but a worse maxed out eco I think (neither of you will have a lot of eco cards). In team Aztecs can probably get away with more eco cards. Might be enough to overcome the 2 factories and Spanish gold, idk. Still a faster boom for Aztecs tho. In Treaty I’m pretty sure it’s pretty heavily favored for Spain.
Watch some higher level games. Spain can FF and hit with like 2 falcs, 8 xbows (or 4 huss), and some other units trained in transition. All that can come around 8:15-8:40 on the clock. If you make it a 3v3 it’s 3 falcs and the units made by two teammates too.
It’s about momentum. Dutch will out-eco you, but he’s spending 700 res per bank while you’re doing other things. There’s a lot you don’t understand.
Again, you always talk about age 5. Rods are better earlier, but do fall off at some point, especially in 3v3s because big battles favor ranged units. In 1v1 they’re usable all the way into age 5 if a 1v1 sup game goes there.
In a team game, I wouldn’t begrudge you your Dragoons if you reach late age 3 and feel it better to upgrade Lancer/Huss +Dragoons (though you should still end it earlier since not all civs are equally good at all stages of the game in all modes).
Having seen your vill micro, I don’t think you’re playing treaty with many people I’d call “high level”. 1300 elo is high in treaty only because very few people play ranked treaty. If your 1300 treaty rating is the highest you have it’s not that impressive (sorry, but it’s not). Lots of 1600+ team players play treaty pretty well but don’t bother with treaty rank. Mexico will also force their opponents into making Dragoons (because Chinacos are op), and you’ll see a few Dragoons in a lot of games. Musketeers are just better for most treaty situations for most civs though.
Can’t really judge the battle without a rec, but from the numbers you gave they had a lot more cavalry than you you had anti cav. A Cossack is about 5/6 a Hussar’s attack with about 2/3 the hp, and if he has 50 he’s probably sent Boyars and Cavalry Combat +Veteran (at least). You also allowed his Skirmishers to hit your anti cavalry without your Hussars in position to either kill Skirmishers or at least to body block skirm shots by mixing into the battle between his Skirmishers and your rods.
No. You can’t let someone’s eco bonus overtake you because then it’s not an even fight. Depending on the civs, you should do fine if you both have 99 vills. But if you sit back and let Brit boom then he’ll have like 60 vills when you have like 40. He’ll hit 99 before you, but you should do fine once things even out again. Every civ has certain timings where you’re good or bad. Civs are balanced around that.
This is very well summarized.
Edit: This is an excellent summary as well. 10/10.
You’re correct that as team cards they are most useful for a smaller set of civs. But team GP Infantry HP is still slower than team 1 Falc. It’s usually a fairly late game card. Team 1 Falc might have the other team out before they get to send it.
You still haven’t shown a picture of your deck.
Having responded to all this, I’m going to leave this here. If you think you know more about the game than these guys, nothing I say is going to convince you of anything. Farewell Juan, I hope you improve to whatever degree you wish.
Yes, a double army of skirmishers and dragoons. Works great. That’s the only way to fight in Treaty. 3v3 = 6 times skirmisher/dragoon mix. No problem. It’s the most effective combination in the game. And whoever invests in even one melee unit will definitely lose. 100%
That’s what I’m saying, Spain can only play normally in a team with Inca and Aztecs. THAT’S IT. If your teammates aren’t Inca or Aztecs, delete all team cards. You are useless to your team. There is no synergy with anyone. The rest of the European civs can play with whoever they want. They are always useful.
@Kingfisher1787 said that I must definitely crush the enemy so that he would lag behind me by an age. From which I concluded that under equal conditions Spain loses. The other civilizations do not need to crush anyone. They can play as they want. So yes. Like Haud.
Well, first of all, the last time I saw the Dutch with the halberdiers was December 4th. And I play with them every day.
Well, and secondly:
You have to be a complete idiot to choose such a tactic. They are broken. They are better than Rodelero, but worse than any other halberdier.
They are slow. A slow melee is a corpse. A useless unit. In the pool, no one ever uses it. Everyone uses Wagons.
I wish I could see Ethiopia more than twice a month. I can’t even tell you how they play most often)))))
And they will never choose it. People always take the path of least resistance. Welcome to the real world.
Why do they need insurgents who don’t level up higher than veteran? All my games in which Mexico went to Maya - their team lost.
I just found out from you that they have such a unit. Think about it.
Conclusion: Every time before the game starts I have to beg my teammates to play through melee, and they will tell me go to hell.
They are BETTER AT EVERYTHING. They are faster, cheaper, you can build more of them, they can destroy buildings. The fact that they don’t have the imperial upgrade means nothing. They are just cheaper than a pikeman, but they have the same damage as a rodelero. This is nonsense. A rodelero should have 30% more damage. Otherwise, it is just a piece of shit. compared to them.
In my treaty, Spain always loses. Here we are playing 3v3 on Orinoco. And if Spain is somewhere, its score always falls lower than its opponent. Whoever is there. Even the Dutch win more often than Spain.
I would like to see a game where Spain plays not through the Musketeers or the XBow/Pike. That is, there are no rodeleros in either. And if he builds them, they don’t decide anything.
The team falk is killed by a volley of 30 musketeers. It does not solve anything and only slows down the economic tempo. Instead, it is necessary to send haciendas as fast as possible. And then a food card and quickly do age 4. f you need falks just build them. Spain has more gold up to age 4 than anyone except the Dutch.
And I was just saying that he plays much better than me. And he built rodeleros, but he couldn’t use them. That’s the problem. He just lost them in a frontal attack on skirmishers to build up the limit for lancers and that’s it.
I already said it all here. You won’t believe me. But I played Treaty against Aztec and built a rodelero and he couldn’t do anything. There were some crazy numbers like for every 1000 Aztecs killed I lost 300 of my soldiers.
I’m already tired of quoting myself because each of you argues not with what I wrote, but with what you yourself have come up with.
There is one trick…
But still they run at 5.20 so they are also suitable for fast infantry. But they can’t be compared because they cost more population.
In Treaty the Aztecs eco are on par with the Swedes and Mexicans.
It’s not about the total amount of resources, but about the fact that a jaguar costs a lot of food. And the Aztecs in Supremacy collect food faster than Spain. They can afford as many jaguars as Spain can afford cheaper rodeleros. That is, the Aztec can fight with jaguars, but Spain cannot. It must always select a perfect mix of units.
Trying to shoot dragoons with musketeers instead of skirmishers is dangerous. And an Aztec can attack skirmishers with jaguars/eagles and it’s okay.
I AM NOT AGAINST IT! BUT NO ONE WANTS TO PLAY LIKE THIS. Everyone picks the Dutch, the French, and the British and non-stop booming!
I can’t attack three players alone. Look at the selection of players.
Are these 500-600 elo guys going to attack with me in the 8th minute? In my opinion, it is you who do not understand a lot things.
I’ll go play for France. I want to play the whole game and not 30%.
Yes. They could have simply removed all upgrades above veteran like Insurgente.
This is what I’ve been saying for 6 months now. Why does a unit costing 100 resources have the same damage as a unit costing 70 resources? I’ll write again just in case. I want to see a video where the use of rodelero won a 1 on 1 fight.
An army of dragoons and skirmishers for everyone. Where are you going to create musketeers?
That’s right. That’s what I’m talking about. That all melee infantry when they go out to protect skirmishers from hussars gets punched in the face by enemy skirmishers. That’s why there’s no point in doing it when you have dragoons.
Okay, I’ll use an analogy to make it clear. You can buy a jacket for clear weather and a raincoat for the rain. I tell you, “Why the hell do I need a raincoat if I can buy an umbrella and wear whatever clothes I want.” You tell me, “What if you’re a builder and you have to work with your hands in the rain.” That’s how our conversation goes.
I’m telling you that I don’t see situations where a rodelero is better than a musketeer or a dragoon. They simply don’t exist.
If you wanted to say this, then it is clear anyway. I have not learned anything new. Everyone understands this on my elo. When we see a team of Ottomans, French and Dutch, everyone writes “rush?” in the chat.
No. It’s bullshit. It should be obvious that improving soldiers is an economic boost. You’ll have to build less of them. The unit is simply useless and therefore does not need to be upgraded.
Less?! Is that how you decided to express yourself? Is that an insult? Do you seriously think that you call the number 3 out of 22 LESS? Against the background of the fact that all other civilizations are improving EVERYONE of 22.
No. This card works immediately. It immediately increases the number of shots fired at infantry. Immediately and forever.
Well, of course. They are immortal.
I change it every game.
I would like to see how these guys win the game with just rodeleros, like the Russians win the game with a crowd of Streltsy.
, but I see where to use them so as not to accidentally lose the fight.
But nevertheless, in a 3vs4 battle it doesn’t work well enough, and where do you get all this wood? (What if I also played through tercio?)
War Wagon)
