HRE - Uniqueness, mechanic and army rant. There is a lot of potential lying fallow

When people speak of “the devs” they’re referring to Relic as a company ( / people in a management position making the decisions) not the actual devs doing the coding / art.

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When I say devs, I mean the whole company. You can actually witness how this game was released with only 50% polish. All the civs that have a campaign, have been playtested way more and feel much more coherent and functional. The French are easy and everything works well and fine. The English are easy and everything works well and fine. They are just a little bit one dimensional, but what they have is in a good spot. Especially since they can actually always have their net of castles buff giving 25%-50% more attack speed. Their eco is just as intuitive as the French one. The Mongols are not easy to play, but they are very elaborated and imo the most unique civ with tons of possibilities. And last but not least we have the Rus, who are arguably the best civ together with the French. All their stuff makes a ton of sense, works well and feels polished.

And then we got the HRE, who are clunky, unfinished and very one dimensional. The prelate for eco is very annoying as he gets selected with the all army command. So you can’t actually use this command. Or you always remove the prelates from the selection, but then you need to know where the prelates are that you want to have with the army. It’s tedious, annoying and just not thought through. There could for example be a tech that allows prelates in towers to give an area inspiration effect or anything else that makes them non-army, while there is also an army version of the prelate. You might even need two kinds of prelates. Mid and late game eco with prelates is so annoying as there is just too little user friendliness. Especially when comparing them to other civs. All the other HRE issues I do not want to list up here again. It should be clear by now.

Same thing with Dehli and their Scholars. You use all army and the freaking mosques with scholars in them are selected as well. How pointless and annoying is that? Dehli is also quite clunky. And so are the Chinese that just feel overloaded. And the idle imperial officers can actually really trigger you, because you alwas think you have idle workers. But it’s just an official who is doing a cigarette break or whatever. The Abbasids might be in the best spot regarding the non-campaign civs, but they are also not perfect in the way they work. They are, however, the most finished civ of the unfinished civs.

I actually find it unacceptable to release something which content is acutally only finished by 50%. But that’s the time we live in, I guess.

This is why I expect a lot of patches and effort from Relic to support this game. And I expect it to be soon.

Otherwise I find 60 dollars (or in my case even Euro) very much for a game that has no ranked, no scenario editor, unfinished civs and plenty of bugs. The campaigns are alright, but do not really convince me. I prefer the way campaigns are done in AoE2 much more. But that might be a question of taste. I am pretty sure the release was pushed from those who do not develop the game but see the money it can generate. This is a development I actually do not want to support. Then again I was longing for a new RTS. And could not not buy it…

So, when a game is released like this, we are very much entitled to criticize and voice our opinion. And we can be annoyed or even angry. Especially if you preordered and trusted in advance. But we should always remain respectful.

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Really?! I did not know that. They aren’t even really military units since they are non-combative. I normally just hotkey select my armies with control groups. That sounds frustrating.

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It is. It is similarly frustrating with scholars as they are selected when in a mosque and also leave the mosque if you do not deselect them and click your all army to go somewhere. There needs to be a lot of improvement for these mechanics.

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They really need to do a hotfix patch. For these problems and the current exploits.

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There is another topic, containing ideas to finish the HRE.

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Thank you for linking the threads together. Yeah, KettleBunny wanted to present his Teutonic State Standalone ideas and while I also doubt that Relic will release a Teutonic State civ, I really like KettleBunny’s ideas. I hope Relic looks into both threads (and all the other threads regarding HRE bugs, mechanics and civ balancing) and finds a good solution for the HRE as a civ in general. I would really love to see some of the suggestions here to make it into the game. The possibilities are there, Relic just needs to embrace them.

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I am cautiously optimistic, because there seems to be a consensus that the HRE is very ‘empty’ in comparison to the other European factions. English and French are both quite distinct. If you meet an English player online, you can expect completely different behavior than from a French player.

HRE seems a bit like an unfinished foundation; as if they didn’t have the time to finish it.

I mentioned HRE to my brother. His immediate reply: “They have nothing”.

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Very true. I feel the exact way as you and your brother does. And we are not alone. I mean, everybody with a heart and the will to really play the HRE, will notice all that as well.

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I mean they are fun and powerful, I just wish they had more flare. We all can pretty much agree with that.

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Yes, except that they are losing power the longer the game goes as the HRE lategame is barely existent at all. There just is nothing for it. Neither in military nor in economics. Just look at the English enclosure tech. With 60 farms you get over 1k gold/minute. That’s part of their tech tree. They “just” need age IV. The HRE needs to go for a Landmark, gather 3 Relics and can have all that earlier, but it becomes weaker in the longrun and requires more of an early investment in comparistion to the self-preservation skills of French (trade, Guild Hall, cheaper units, cheaper techs, faster vill production) and English (enclosure). In regards of economic power, however, I think it would be better to nerf French and English (have enclosure tick every 5 seconds instead of 3.5 = 60 farms → 720 g/minute), leave the HRE and Rus where they are, and buff the remaining civs in accordance to their other boni.

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Yeah, that is why I said in another thread that the HRE is much better early game vs late Abbasid. Funny enough if you ever played total war one of the weaknesses for the HRE in that game is: “Lacks the late professional armies of England and Spain”

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English need more gold late game than most other civs, because their artillery is not competitive.

Vanilla Bombard. Vanilla Springald. No Culverin.
They get the organ gun and shattering projectiles… So bad lol

While I agree some things on HRE are not working as expected IMO is the best civ, very aggressive if you want or you can turtle, the only thing I don’t like is that it is missing more unique units… I do think artillery I’m this game is broken is extremely powerful.

The Genesis tournament is a perfect display of what a terrible civ the HRE is. The HRE often reached lategame, but they just don’t have anything good. Infantry sucks in lategame leaving the HRE with literally nothing strong. Infantry didn’t do anything all tourney long. It was all about siege, archers and especially French and Rus knights. There is just nothing for HRE. They have the least tools for lategame and also a poor castle age. Watching the HRE in the tourney really annoyed me as it displayed the core of all my complaints all over again. It’s just an unfinished, boring and weak civ. Weakest cav, weakest unique unit, terrible archers, baseline siege, most bugs, least identity and most useless mechanics, it was actually sad. The Daut game against Don Artie was the perfect display that the HRE offers zero. And it beats me why Religion is supposed to be their strong suit. How? Where? When? The Dehli get monk upgrades in age 2, the rus have better monks altogether and both civs do not count as core religious civs. Yet their religion affects gameplay much more. The HRE needs patches, love and everything. Relic… Come on. Why was this game released in this terrible and unfinished state? There is no civ balance, only superior and inferior civs. It’s a mess. High quality gameplay shows that.

There is French
then nothing
then Rus
then English and Mongols
then nothing
then Abbasids
then nothing
then HRE, Dehli and China → HRE has a good early game, rest is trash, and the two other civs got a good late game, but a tough and weak early game

Age of Empires 4 is an open beta and I am not sure, if the game remains in that state it is in rn and only receive band aid fixes, leaving the core issues alive, which would kill the game pretty quickly, or if there is actually the will at Relic to put a lot of effort into it to someday finish the game. There is a lot of effort needed to put the game in a good state. And the longer Relic waits with fixing stuff, the more people and players will get annoyed.

I sincerely hope that the game will turn out the way it deserves to be. Right now we are far away from that. The game was released way too early and didn’t have a long enough beta phase. To be fair, the beta phase was extended into the release of the game and that’s where we are.

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The HRE really could use some kind of siege bonus. We are left with no siege bonuses just like England. The English are supposed to be the straight forward one trick archer civ with defense bonuses. The HRE basically has to risk it for the biscuit into a castle rush to use any siege advantage. Granted they can do this, but it is very risky and greedy in a 1v1. Then you got the French who are supposed to literally be the one trick pony civ, but end up being the joker card of civs.

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Don’t get me started lol

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I’d say HRE is still above Delhi and China. Possibly others. But yeah, as I previously expressed, balance in general hasn’t proven great with the meta now established.

If the French player doesn’t play a perfect start, though, the MAA can indeed counter during the early third age. But, as we all know, high-level players are closer to perfection. Then the imbalance is going to show, of course (I’ll be watching that match you mentioned).

Still, countering doesn’t mean reversing the match in terms of aggressiveness. It’s nearly impossible to take the initiative at Feudal and attack the French base, exposing your economy to swift and fast-healing Knights.

I don’t know how this could’ve made it into the final game.

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England doesn’t have the Culverin.

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I mean culverin isn’t unique to the HRE?

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