It does. They don’t get the timing lead. Maybe if they lost the 100 wood penalty, it might fit (not suggesting they should lose that penalty) but not otherwise.
What timing lead Tatars get? Their wood savings from not building farm is not necessarily always better than Huns.
1 Like
And how is this relevant to having any unit?
You can have units in a civ’s tech tree without a civ bonus that helps them.
3 Likes
Spearmen and skirmishers without Elite dont fit in the Turk tech tree because nobody uses them. Get rid of them.
Also get rid of the Gujara spear. Just use camel scouts!!!
Viking stables are dog poop units. Delete the building!
1 Like
Huns is currently #1 civ from 1200+ elo and #8 civ for all elo. Their pick rate also pretty high on the list. #8 from 1200+ elo and #12 for all elo. Do they really need any rework? Feel like people actually are still enjoying Huns as it is.
3 Likes
Viking economy is so good in the midgame that it’s still viable to use Knights.
Also Light Cavalry has the unique role as a monk counter.
1 Like
You arent picking up on my sarcasm. Sometimes a tech tree with dead ends can exist for regional flavor instead of perfect balance
But the other suggestions make more sense.
Some dead ends are just too dead that it feels wrong that those units are even available in the Feudal Age.
Maybe it would be better to just completely remove them.
It would be a little extreme for Turks though. But at last the Skirmisher is not really needed since they got a good Scout Line to fight Archers.
Tarkans should be a bit more potent against non-stone defense buildings.
1 Like
yeah tbh. it is really strange that the unit that uses a torch to attack is especially good against Stone Walls.
I think it would be more logical if walls would be their weakness.
ok crazy idea:
- Takrans completely moved to Stable
- Tarkans only do bonus damage vs. Building but it’s a lot more then now, especially for Elite Tarkans
- New Castle Age UU allows to garrison Cavalry in Rams, cavalry gives 2x the bonus that Infantry gives
The Huns should be given a nomadic pen that allows you train sheep in place of a farm and they should be able to pack up their buildings or not.
I would say that, as such, Takrans must visually fight with swords or spears, and have a normal rather than such slow rate of fire.
They can still have high PA and a slight bonus against buildings as an identity, and the Marauders can give stable units +2 attack against buildings and give Takrans a torch mode. The torch mode will allow them to have a torch visually as they currently do, fighting at a lower basic attack and slower rate but allowing them to throw the torch up to 3 tiles when the target is a building, siege weapon or ship.
If the Huns do use Tarkans to directly replace Knights, they will undoubtedly deserve Steppe Lancers, and even Imperial Steppe Lancers.
Tarkans themselves are already kind of better Rams to a certain extent.
It would be interesting if the new UU in Castles is the mounted villager.
Yes and thats why you dont see Steppe lancers often from them either. You can do them in mid castle age or early imp after getting Silk Armor but its not necessary, Keshiks are a better choice as a main army and 5 p.armor light cav for raids. Or in other words Steppe lancers don’t help Tatars much.
Yes a civ can have units without a bonus on them. But if the unit has alternatives and shines only in a particular timing window, its going to be niche and won’t be the best change for a civ. Like in this case since Huns have good cavalry options, Lancers are going to be strong only when Huns hit castle age a min earlier than the opponent.
On the other hand lets say you add a mounted unit with low attack but bonus damage against camels and anti cavalry bonus resistance. Huns can go for that unit after opening knights when opponent has made too many camels. The unit will have a clear purpose and usability.
Overall I wouldn’t mind Huns getting Lancers but if you conisder them weak and want to buff them then I don’t think this is the best way for it.
No. Because
- Those units dont have functional alternatives - no other generic infantry with bonus damage vs mounted units and costs no gold. No ranged unit with high p.armor, anti-archer bonus and costs no gold. Whereas all civs that get lancers have light cavalry and knights. Lancers are somewhat in between and situational.
- They start at an age where they are on par with most other civs and will be used and they are unit lines which literally every civ in the game can produce unlike Lancers which are limited to three civs.
wonder why you didn’t pick something clearly even worse - the Dravidian stable. But anyways again the same reason, no alternatives. If you give them eagles or equivalent units to fill the role of scouts and knights, you can delete their stable.
Please tell me you understand sarcasm.
Also technically Gujara has scout camels but still a few civs with non elite steppe lancers so the unit feels less exclusive would be nice.
3 Likes
When ever someone suggest this all that I can think of is how visually odd that wil look.
Actually they were designed so the devs could make the Attila campaign, which is probably why one of their techs is pretty much only relevant in one scenario and had to be heavily reworked to justify keeping it without replacing it.
1 Like
But they still have SL anyway. And I’ll bet Huns SL will have more use than Tatars due to faster stable.
BTW, I’m not in favor of adding SL to Huns right now. Had they become as unpopular as Persians, I might change my mind.
1 Like
Huns… Where shall I even start with this misunderstood historical phenomena…
Voice lines of Huns can be changed to be a bit more historically accurate, here I will provide some possible words to change the current medieval Mongolian ones.
These words, except ones I added because they are shared among both Turkic and Mongolic and Hungarian languages alike, are from recorded Hunnic words and names. Probably a lot of them are of unknown etymology, possibly Yeniseian.
Huns got assimilated into Bulghar and Onogur populations, though probably they were not Turkic or Mongolic in origin, even if they were they belonged to a subbranch which is now extinct.
Yes: doqri (true) Tuqi King - Wikipedia
Greeting: tɨŋgɨr- kwala- (from God) Chanyu - Wikipedia
Ready: edeko (following) Edeko - Wikipedia
Orders: njaɡ-tej (with piety) 若鞮 - Wiktionary, the free dictionary
Yea!: üle- (surplus, leave, parting) Reconstruction:Proto-Turkic/üle- - Wiktionary, the free dictionary Hulugu - Wikipedia
Correct: tikka (clear) Xiong-nu_Part2-libre.pdf (d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net)
I will: wole (do, in Uralic and Mongolic) Reconstruction:Proto-Turkic/ol- - Wiktionary, the free dictionary
I am going: tirekang Jie people - Wikipedia
Builder: ellac (of land) Ellac - Wikipedia
Chopper: akatziri (woodcutting tribesman) Akatziri - Wikipedia
Farmer: yāpa (word for agriculture in Hungarian and proto-Turkic) Reconstruction:Proto-Turkic/yāpa - Wiktionary, the free dictionary
Fisherman: dengizich (small sea) Dengizich - Wikipedia
Gatherer: alma (word for fruit in Hungarian, Mongolian and Turkic)
Hunter: balamut (savage) Balamber - Wikipedia
Repair: yānzhi (red dye, makeup) 胭脂 - Wiktionary, the free dictionary
Miner: mundjuk (jewels) Mundzuk - Wikipedia
Fight!: sujie! (armies!) Jie people - Wikipedia
Attack: totang! (catch them!) Jie people - Wikipedia
To battle: botur! (warrior!) Baghatur - Wikipedia
Historically accurate Huns, in appearance:
Hunnic Tarkhan
File:Reconstruction of a Xiongnu chief warrior, 2nd century BCE-1st century CE.jpg - Wikimedia Commons
Tarkhan, “chanyu” in Chinese and “dangwan” in Xiongnu, were names for high kings in Hunnic civilisation. Word itself is borrowed from Indo-European and means “judge”, they ruled over the “ruandi” (local chieftains) and “tuqi” princes.
The inaccurate part would be the fact that they wield torches in the game, however this as special unit makes sense, and developers should not make change to their appearance as they appear unique in their current way.
Hunnic technology:
Unlike popular myth, Huns were not associated with archery, it would be Turkics and Mongols maybe also Scythians.
“自常山以至代、上黨，東有燕、東胡 之境，西有樓煩、秦、韓之邊，而無騎射之備。”
“No mounted archers ready for action”
Huns had unique ability in horsemanship, there are different archaeological findings that they might have wielded ax and sword, otherwise not so much evidence for archery mastery.
Huns did not knew stonemasonry, they built palaces such as “Longcheng”, “Abakan Palace Ruins” and “Otuken” but they were made out of wood.
Onegesius had a fort made out of wooden palisades, no stone walls, which confirms they still didnt knew stonemasonry even when they migrated to west.
There were also mountains they resided but… it is cultural fact.
Culture:
Huns DEFINITELY worshipped a sky (and sea?) deity named Tenger, both royal title and etymologies (tingir meaning sky in Yenisei and tenger meaning sea in Hungarian) confirm this fact.
In North China, they had a cultural renaissance, they adopted Buddhism and they built cave monasteries. They had two holy mountains which are Dilen and Yanzhi, second being a place where Huns gathered red dye for makeup purposes, Xiongnu words for “wife” and “makeup” are both “Yanzhi”.
Buddha statue from Xiongnu engraved Mogao caves - Wikimedia Commons
Problem with Huns in AOE2
Not much really,
Just lacking the cultural scale, Huns definitely have a buff for using horse units to encourage player to use cavalry only as historically intended.
Another cultural flaw would be lack of religious aspects of Huns, those guys practiced shamanism (I include Bulgars and Onogurs as Huns too) even when almost all Europe became Christians.
File:Noin-Ula carpet.jpg - Wikimedia Commons
And also, Huns were more “Asian” than they were ever “European” so Hunnic buildings should appear Asian if anything, although even this would be inaccurate, only things Huns left for us are graves, kurgans, cultural footprint in other civilisations and cave decorations.
File:Hua ambassador to the Southern Liang court 516-520 CE.jpg - Wikimedia Commons
Abakan palace ruins, Hunnic.
MONGOLS CHINA AND THE SILK ROAD : A mysterious Chinese-style palace thousands of miles from home in Siberia
Tongwancheng: The only remaining vestiges of ancient Hun capital - CGTN
Edit:
Along with powdered dye makeup and, apparently, wives of Hunnic men using these makeups there is also a cultura practive common with steppe nomads which is - mourning.
Huns called mourning “strava”, we do not know much about this ritual but what we know from Buddhist inscriptions is steppe mourning rituals involved self-harm.
File:Maya Cave 224, mural of the Mourning of the Buddha with drawing.jpg - Wikimedia Commons
3 Likes
You seem to be working off the assumption that Huns ans Xiongnu are the same. I just wanted to point out this has yet to be confirmed as of the last time I checked.
About this, I and others have been requesting a Nomadic architecture set to be shared between Huns, Mongols and Cumans (Persians would be moved to the Central Asian set, or ar least that’s my hope).
3 Likes
They are not same, as how not Goths and the Visigoths are not same or not how Gokturks and Turks are not same or how Bulgars and Bulgarians are not same, however in general there is a succession.
The Huns did not carry all their cultural practices from the steppes but in general they shared the same practices their contemproraries, they were a steppe civilization of their time.
So, a practice Xionite or a Nezak doing would not be so far away from a Xiongnu or a Khwarezmian was doing at these times I think.
But, games are not supposed to be historical simulations, but adding some flavor would be nice.
I agree but one small point:
Mongols and Cumans for example used yurts, tents made from goat hair and leather. There is no evidence neither Scythians or Huns used yurts, I can only find one source about European Hunnic settlement and it tells that:
After the king’s compound, Onegesios’s was magnificent and also itself had an enclosing log wall. His was not equipped with towers like Attila’s; rather there was a bath, not far from the enclosing wall, which Onegesios, as the preeminent man among the Scythians [Huns] after Attila, built large by conveying stones from Paionia … the bath’s architect, brought in from Sirmium as a prisoner of war … Onegesios made him the bath attendant to serve him and his comrades while they were bathing. *
Given, John P. (2015). The Fragmentary History of Priscus: Attila, the Huns and the Roman Empire, AD 430–476. Arx Publishing. ISBN 9781935228141.
so, a Hunnic settlement would look like this
instead of this
About Iranics… It is a tricky one, at same time there were Alans until Avars took their spot and made the remaining Alans hide in mountains, whose descendants became Ossetians, and then we see Tajiks who built stone cities in midst of steppes.
1 Like