Voice lines are not necessary.
Sound effects and background music are not necessary.
Unit animations are not necessary.
Upgradable unit skins are not necessary.
Regional-specific buildings or flora & fauna are not necessary.
Building destruction effects are not necessary.
So if you cut all these you’ll suddenly get a game whose gameplay or popularity matches chess.
----- Sarcasm ends here ------
More details is better than less details. If that leads to performance or identifiability or budget or whatever issues, you need to find a way to handle those issues. There is no evidence that shows adding more details would definitely wreck the game whatever you do. Back in 1990s people may argue using 3D graphics alone can lead to performance or identifiability or budget or whatever issues, but these are not problems anymore. That’s how everything develops.
If you cannot find a good way to implement those details by today’s standards and have to cut them, while someone else could, you’re at a disadvantage.
If you are the sole leader of the industry, you should at least realize that is a limitation or a compromise. You cannot say horse carriage is a brilliant and perfect design simply because you cannot make automobiles yet.
I’m not using chess as a bad example. Chess is the peak of gameplay and popularity which undergoes thousands of years of development. Video games cannot beat chess in every respect, and removing the realism/immersiveness, which are the very few advantages video games have over chess, does not make the video game match chess in gameplay.
That isn’t what you were saying based on your statement.
But I see you made an edit not long ago. Honestly I don’t get that whole “if we remove all details we end up with a game matching chess” statement. But I will just assume it was a joke that went over my head.
I think its important to understand what you are actually critiquing then. What do you mean by lack of detail?
Do you mean blatantly blurry textures? I can agree with that.
However its clear units differ in quality even between trailers we’ve seen.
And having played the beta, I will tell you it was clear it was a beta.
These are things we should just assume they will fix as they are so blatantly obvious.
If they don’t, you have the right to say its unpolished. But we can only make that judgement at launch/after another beta.
Now if you’re talking about the style of the game I will disagree with you.
Because chess is the peak of gameplay. No video game, not even RTS (turn-based strategy games haven’t said a word), is going to compete with chess on sheer gameplay, so they need to utilize other advantages they have but chess does not.
Why would anyone choose to play a video game if there is chess?
Faster pace and instant rewards
Immersiveness, which includes graphics, sound effects, and other details.
Trimming these features (which chess does not have) is NOT going to make your video game closer to chess, but instead removing the very few advantage of video games over chess.
For example, if you make an RTS with units as classic chess pieces fighting on a classic chess board, it is not going to beat chess nor other RTS.
For the rest of the statement, I’m not talking about AOE4. I’m responding to the popular opinions of “RTS is like chess so details are not important”.
No. RTS cannot be compared with chess in every respect. The very few advantage it has over chess is the details.
Chess pion are not animated and have a simplistic design.
Look at the trebuchet problem, in the trailler.
In the game play vidéo, the trebuchet look like a chess pion, whit no animation. It is a building, a object.
If we put people working whit the trebuchet, we get a working trebuchet, for who ever using it. It give animation to the trebuchet. 14 people was alot, but needed to assemble the trebuchet, cut stone ball, turn weel, to arm the trebuchet, to oil the axis and other stuff.
My main point has always been “RTS CANNOT compare with chess even if you removed all the details”.
So I listed the details that an RTS have but chess does not, and these are the very few advantages an RTS has.
So apparently removing these details is not going to make the game compare to chess, but would result in a worse RTS.
That sentence you keep quoting is a sarcasm because it is obviously not the case.
An RTS with chess pieces moving around on a chess board, directly capturing each other, is not going to beat chess nor any RTS.
That’s why RTS units have more visual details, animations, interactions and sound effects. These move the video game further away from chess, into another dimension to avoid direct competition with chess.
So I don’t know why when it comes to details like operators, people suddenly begin to compare RTS with chess.
That’s why I find TBS a bit boring. Turn by turn simulation which might as well be graphical chess due to so many restrictions. Can’t move more than certain spaces. Gotta wait your turn etc.
RTS is more like Real Life Simulatiom that they turned into a game.
Imagine you are a general in the battlefield, commanding your troops. The war would be like an RTS game. Moving and positioning your troops based on a plan of action, to better your opponent.
This real time simulation requires strategy. I’d say AOE is RTSS because it is Real Time Strategy Simulation. You are literally simulating the recreation of the Middle Ages. Hence why immersiveness and graphical detail is essential.
Have you played total war? It’s much more of a simulation than any AoE game will ever be. It also has the realistic graphics you seem to value so much, which really fit those games’ style of gameplay. Same applies for company of heroes.
I honestly don’t see where you get a simulation feeling from AoE, with all the monks converting people during a battle, archers using split formation to avoid catapult shots, cavalry stoping charges to attack enemy units while standing still… I could go on.
It really seems to me that you want AoE to be something it is not. Hence why you can’t accept a less realistic art style.
Of course you’re entitled to experience any game however you want, and to prefer any kind of graphic or play style etc.
I’m just saying this because a change in mindset could make you appreciate more AoE4 as it is now, and also enjoy the immersive simulation you want in games much more geared towards it, like the TW series.
I personally think AoE4 visuals are beautiful (although not perfectly executed) and really fit the series. But the same style would look ridiculous in a total war or company of heroes game.
Not trying to argue with you or invalidade your opinion here. Feel free to disagree. Cheers.
I just want to start with this, never meant for it to be an argument, I value your opinion and I appreciate your statement, no hard feelings.
Yes I’ve played total war, yes it has some simulations which is really meh. It only simulates battle. That is it. And the turn by turn thing is something I tolerated while AOE was on its low, but it never got to me. The type of simulation that AOE is cannot be seen by competitive players. Which is why you find it hard to see it my way. I’ve never been the multiplayer kind, I preferred single player with AI’s mostly because all my games go for hours. And I play like a story. If I was a streamer, I’d be mostly in the campaign section. And while people speed run each mission in low 15 minutes, I spend hours on 1 mission at a time. Building my city up, making it grand, building armies and then simulating version of battle. Like a story within a story. I wasn’t introduced to build order till 20 years later.
And with over 2/3 players in AOE 2 playing in single player, I wouldn’t be surprised if I wasn’t the only one who did that. But that’s the thing with APE and especially older players, they have been plying it all different kinds of ways and AOE has always provided the field for that. Even the whole split mechanics, to dodge catapaulta and all this micro, I’ve never in 20 years attempted it on any AOE game. If I ever played competitive, I’d be playing as if I played for the first time.
And that’s what you don’t understand. That people love this game for many reasons and people play for different styles, there’s no one way of playing it. When your game pata 30-40 minutes tops, graphics means squat. You are barely in a game long enough to see what is happening, on your mind is what’s the next move every second. For me, who spends like up to 6 hours on a game which was my longest game, notices the finest detail.
So to say to someone the way you have been playing for 20 years is invalid, go play something else is Gate keeping the game. It’s time people understood that there are other view points but their own.
As paying a customer, And long time player of this game, I have every right to ask for stuff that is being met by games in this era. AOE II was developed using sprite animations. Now games are being developed using unreal engines. You are trying to make this game into something that matches what you feel this game is about while shutting down everyone who disagrees with you because they wall have their own play style.
I’m after adding an option that can literally be turned off at the click of a button or dialled down with a scroll. So I’m not denying you your play style.
A change in mindset means “you should stop playing the game your way, and only play it my way. Then you will appreciate the way it is”. Long games that go for hours with absolutely minimal graphics quality and creativity. And that too that I’m paying so much for. Relic aren’t doing you a favour by making this game. There’s no need to feel so indebted to them that asking for your money’s worth is seen as selfish. Especially since I’m not denying you your way of playing or the reasons why you play. They are a business making a game for profit. As a customer I don’t go around shops paying overpriced items for lower services. Nd by choosing to specifically target AOE franchise, they are targeting more than just gamers, they are targeting people who have sentimental memories and feelings behind this franchise.
If I wanted to go to TW, I would have done it by now. But expecting 2021 graphics that every other game, flop or success, is not unfair on Relic.
When people purchase products, they expect the standards of it to be up to par with all the other stuff. No one will pay for something that is not worth its price unless you are just so obsessed that your logic is thrown out the window. Which tbh is me for AOE. But as a paying customer, just like you and just like everyone else here, I do have a right to say what I want to see in the game. Especially since my requests do not deny you yours.
I love the colour choices of AOE visuals and I find the scenery very scenic. If I have a problem, it’s with the over simplified units that lack texture. It’s not up to par with many games that have the same visuals. It’s not unique. And some animations are terrible IMO.
While you have no expectations to see AOE IV up there with the top 10, I have full confidence that this game absolutely has the potential and as a lover of AOE franchise, I want it to be up there. Hence the requests. It absolutely cannot make it anywhere close to up there without going above and beyond what RTS has been incapable of doing in the past. When AOE II came out, people were playing 3D but the 3D tech was terrible and jarred people’s systems. Yet as technology evolved, 3D became a staple in gaming. Things evolve with new technology, so expecting technology to have advanced significantly in 20 years is no big expectation either.
Monks converting, a reference to the huge influence religion played in that age. Horses stoping a charge. Well, there are many things that were unrealistic in old AOE that they changed in AOE IV to add more realism and depth , as well as a touch to strategic gameplay.
Again I’m not asking for a movie in the medieval ages. None of my requests affect gameplay. “Manning siege weapons” is a common occurrence in almost every APE game. Even in AOM when you are playing those rams for the Norse, it has people carrying those. They are unplayable but it adds immersiveness to the Viking era.
Again what people are asking for is not unheard of in previous games. Yes it was done a bit less of a standard due to the lack of technology at the time. But anyone who plays hours long games will know how much extensive effort was put into every tiny detail that would be largely ignored by competitive players.
Just because something means nothing to you, doesn’t mean it doesn’t mean something to someone else. If AOe did not give that space for me to play the way I enjoy playing, I wouldn’t be playing it. Like I can’t play that style with TW, or Civ 6. It’s because AOE actually provides that, that I am even able to have these expectations.
I speak more about my example because I definitely do not attempt to monopolise hoon how others play this game. By stating my example, I just simply aim to clarify that there is more than one way to do something, no one has a right to judge others on how they enjoy something, or that the way they are playing is wrong, hence hopefully by that you will get that when people ask for more, they deserve to. They shouldn’t need to feel that their style was rejected because your style and expectations based on your style of play was met.
And they shouldn’t be forced to abandon a franchise they’ve loved for 20 years and dreamed for seeing something like a new development in the modern era. Again because your expectations based on your play style was met
Like by fish, there are people playing AOE with cars driving around, flying dogs with capes and hippos that vomit rainbows. Or even fork boys. Good on them for finding something they enjoy about the game. And if they want those cheats to carry on into AOe IV, I definitely do not want to be the gate keeper and tell them that their play style is wrong and hey don’t have the right to ask for stuff like that. Or attempt to shut it down because I don’t play like that.
TBH im not fussed about scalability of units. I’m not asking for units to be the size of doors of buildings. But because I think it’s unnecessary and I like the way it is, doesn’t mean I jump onto the scalability forums and tell people that their demands are unrealistic and they should go play somewhere else.
I may just make a comment about what I think about the topic and then be on my way.by comment I mean stating my opinion without attempting to overpower or undermine theirs.
When I said I didn’t want to argue with you, my intention was that you didn’t get defensive. I wanted to have a discussion without hostility. Seems I failed at that.
I never said you or anyone are wrong about expecting specific features from the game. Although some people here talk like if the devs owed them something and are committing a sin for not including x, y or z feature, which is a little pretentious, to say the least.
I just found curious that you mentioned AoE is a simulator to you. I thought I had seen everything here, but that was a first. I just wanted to know more, and, again, not to antagonize you.
With the description you gave, I’m sure what you mean you like in AoE is not actually simulation, but a storytelling element, something many people relate to “the feeling of creating an empire” or something similar. This has nothing to do with simulation, but you can call it whatever you want, the semantics don’t really matter.
Also said my intention was not to invalidade your opinion.
Anyone can expect whatever they want. I’m not saying you’re wrong to expect anything or to play in any way.
You assumed I’m a competitive player and therefore do not understand your play style, but the reality is that I often play exactly the way you described. How can I be gatekeeping someone that does the same as I do?
To conclude, when I said “change your mindset”, I was not saying you have to change the way you play or what you like. That would be ridiculous. I was merely suggesting you tried to see the game through a different perspective, that maybe could be more pleasing to you. Now that I understand what you mean with “simulation”, my suggestion stopped making sense, since TW and CoH don’t really provide that (although AoE4 does, for me at least).
