I dont like the Bulgarian Cavalier being better than the Malian one

[TungstenBoar]

I would argue thst rn Bulgarians have a comparable early game to Mali.

And no, Bulgarian infantry isnt worse. Malian pikes suck and Champskarls are fairly situational (and I think the comparison you made is kind of bad and Gbetos are good but not great. And Malian arbs suck, both the cavaliers, cav archers and light cav are better for Bulgarians and Konniks are comparable to Malian camels (not to mention Kreposts are awesome), Bulgarian siege is waaaay better.

So at the end the four advantages over Bulgarians are Camels,Bombard cannons and Gbetos. While Bulgarians are comfortably better on anything else

[Green4uu]

@TungstenBoar

But at the same time when Bulgarians have soooooo many advantages over them at late game (halbardiers, better skirms, far better siege, comparable if not better militia line, the best hussars, Konniks and Kreposts)

Malians don’t get worse Skirms, for skirms armor is FAR more important than range since most of their dmg is bonus dmg so actually malian skirms > bulgarians.

[Mikrob99]

Arbs are still a decent power spike once you hit imp but of course you’ll switch into something else afterwards and they’re more than effective against dismounted konniks and THS. Bulgarian infantry is only slightly better in melee than champions while they die easier to archers which again is a weakness which Malian champions dont suffer and you still have gbetos to use against melee infantry. The only advantage in terms of infantry is halbs but you get strong camels with longer lasting gold so i just see it as a trade off. They’re Hussar and cavalier are better but you still have to pay 600 gold for hussar and 220 gold for blast furnace to be better than malians whereas malians just pay 400 gold for farimba. And you still have bombard cannons against their siege. Halbs and koniks are the only advantage at the end of the day and maybe better defences with krepost. Also Malians early game is better. Whereas with bulgarians you have to force long fights in feudal to make use of the blacksmith discount

[TungstenBoar]

@Mikrob99

Arbs are still a decent power spike once you hit imp

Eh not really. Even with the faster chemistry I would still rather have FU crossbow.

@Mikrob99

Bulgarian infantry is only slightly better in melee than champions while they die easier to archers which again is a weakness which Malian champions dont suffer and you still have gbetos to use against melee infantry.

Nope. Mali infantry is solid but Bulgarian infantry is more viable 99% of the itme.

@Mikrob99

They’re Hussar and cavalier are better but you still have to pay 600 gold for hussar and 220 gold for blast furnace to be better than malians whereas malians just pay 400 gold for farimba

Yes for Hussars is more expensive but for cavaliers its not (and blacksmiths work faster for Bulgarians who also have their UT an age earlier). And by late imp extra costs doesnt matter as much.

@Mikrob99

And you still have bombard cannons against their siege.

Having siege rams and siege onagers is still a WAY bigger advantage and thats without mentioning the cheaper siege techs.

Yes bombard cannons is good, but its not half as good as what Bulgarians get

@Mikrob99

Halbs and koniks are the only advantage at the end of the day and maybe better defences with krepost

You really arent making good points to say that.

@Mikrob99

Also Malians early game is better.

Not anymore. They are still solid, but they arent any better than Bulgarians.

[TungstenBoar]

@PlumpDucklin

malians poor arb is still a faster power spike than bulgarians slow burn but ultimately better HCA

Malian arbs are worse than generic FU crossbow.

@PlumpDucklin

they’re not really that comparable… they have strengths in different areas which helps them more in certain match ups… for example bulgarian lack of BBC really hurts their siege + infantry combo, because they just get deleted by BBC

Lithuanians dont have a better siege than Slavs just because they have Bombard cannons. Tbh Bombard cannons are really good, but I think that the siege is still WAY better for Bulgarians in every way possible

@PlumpDucklin

bagains makes 2hs swordsman better in fights where they are generally good anyway, but malians +3P makes far more of an impact because it nullifies one of infantry’s hardest counters…

I think you are blowing the bonus out of proportions.

@PlumpDucklin

malians power goes up with elo…

No I dont think it is.

I get that argument before the nerf, it doesnt apply anymore.

[WrathofInnos]

Maybe I’m missing something, but it seems like Malian Cavalier is better than Bulgarian.

200 (Bulgarians) Cavaliers vs 200 (Malians) Cavaliers | AoE II: Definitive Edition

Bulgarians have 16 attack, Malians have 19. Both have 5 armor so the resulting damage is 11 or 14. I don’t believe Stirrups affects the first hit, so Bulgarians bonus only kicks in after that. I do think that the Bulgarian wins in 1v1 Cavalier fights (edit: it does not, Malian wins 1v1 every time), but Malian is more up front damage and does better in fights with movement (or chasing down targets like villagers and archers). This can lead to a snowball effect and victory.

Both civs are fine IMO.

[TungstenBoar]

Nah, I think that you understimate how good the faster reload rate is.

In 99% of the times its just a better Malian bonus for a civ thats better on late game and comparable on early game.

[WrathofInnos]

Are you sure you’re not overestimating it? Seems like a pretty decisive result in that video.

I will agree that Stirrups is generally the better tech, because it is available in Castle Age and much cheaper than Farimba. Just seems like a stretch to call Bulgarian post imperial Cavalier better than Malian, outside of a scenario editor 1v1 duel.

Edit: I was curious enough to do a little controlled testing here. If Bulgarians win in small numbers, and Malians in large numbers, I wanted to know the break-even point. The results were very unexpected, and I was incorrect about the 1v1 duel. 1 Malian Cavalier beats 1 Bulgarian every time, regardless of who lands the first hit. I was probably overestimating Stirrups as giving 4 hits to any other civ’s 3 (after the first hit), but maybe it’s a true 33.00% increase. This means that the 13th Bulgarian hit (killing blow) will always be later than the 10th Malian hit (killing blow) by milliseconds. Can anyone confirm this explanation?

[CloudAct]

Both civs are perfectly balanced, not sure what this thread is supposed to accomplish.

[TungstenBoar]

Mali was perfectly balanced.

Now I feel like they need an small help.

[CloudAct]

@TungstenBoar

Mali was perfectly balanced.

Now I feel like they need an small help.

They were a bit too strong and now are in a perfect spot. Don’t try to fix what isn’t broken.

[TungstenBoar]

They werent too strong.

They were a perfectly balanced civ with clear strengths and weaknesses which was strong on hybrid maps and good on arabia, but not very special anywhere else. Rn they are just strong on hybrid maps and fairly meh on arabia.

The civ didnt need a nerf at all.