Yeah, at least, replace the Chinese Grenadiers with Zhanma Swordsmen. ZXL’s Grenadiers are still useful, but Chinese Grenadiers are basically redundant in the very late game. I’d much rather see a buff to anti-cav.
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I really don’t see the point of the Grenadier for the Vanilla Chinese in the Ming Dynasty. You have to build two landmarks costing 7200 resources just to unlock it, and for what? Just to get some clunky unit meant for countering infantry? Did NoB stop being effective, or are all your Hand Cannoneers dead?
At least ZXL’s Grenadier has Hardened Bomb, but what is the Chinese Grenadier even good for? Spirit Way? That’s gotta be the weirdest landmark so far. Its attack speed buff doesn’t even apply to units other than Archery infantry.
Since it’s a late-game unit, it should be something like an Imperial Guard — an expensive unit that raises the civ’s ceiling — instead of this mediocre unit that has no clear purpose.
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Why China didn’t have more unique units when released in 2021?
Why didn’t China get the Bed Crossbowman or more units at launch? Simply, because the game in 2021, when it was released, the developers believed they had to limit unique units for “Supposed balance”:
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The developers limited the unique units of ALL 8 original civilizations to just 3: English (Bow Villager, Vanguard Men-at-Arms, Longbowman). French: Royal Knight, Arbalesteir, Cannon; etc
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In the case of China, there was the “Bee Nest,” “Imperial Official,” and “1 Dynasty Unit,” of which you could only have one at a time.
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About Palace Guard: I don’t think they even considered the Palace Guard (4th Chinese unique unit) a uniquely “relevant” unit for balance in 2021, since aside from its speed, its stats were almost identical to the men-at-arm unit, except for its armor. In fact, it was “defeated” by base men-at-arm units due to having -1/-1 armor. It didn’t even have a “Unique Icon,” which says it all. That’s why the Chinese were allowed to have them with the other 3 units.
They probably created that limitation of “Uniqueness” for their idea of balance. However, it didn’t go as planned, and China was extremely weak. Therefore, in the first patch of Season 1, China gained the ability to use “All” the unique units they unlocked while passing beetween dynasties.
Why Jin Dynasty has units that China doesn’t
If Jin Dynasty has units like the Zanma Swordsman, Nest of Bees (shared), Traction Trebuchet, and Beed Crossbowman, I thinks it’s because the developers “In recent years” have received feedback that people like historical accuracy, especially after what happened with the first 4 variants (Jeanne, Zhuxi, Oftd)
And well, “in 2025”, they did a good job when they created civilizations like the Knight Templars, Lancaster, or Sengoku Dynasty with their own Tanegashima arquebusiers and square-shielded cavalry.
The Jin using Han units makes historical sense:
During they first part (Feudal II), the Jin Dynasty was primarily a cavalry army that acquired weapons from the Liao and Song dynasties as it gained more and more territory.
However, during their final years (Imperial Age IV i guess), the Jin lost the northern part of their kingdom to the Mongols invasion of Genghis Khan, and had to switch from cavalry to Han infantry (Zanma Swordsman) recruited from territory taken from the Northern Song, and gunpowder units (unique gunpowder technologies). Since the Handcannon hadn’t been invented by the time they perished (1234), its predecessor, the Eruptor, did have it.
What to ask for for China in 2026?
At least for historical accuracy, give China the Zanmadao and Bed Crossbowman as well.
And even if there are top 10 pros who say no, that it’s broken, I don’t really care: Reduce their late-game economic bonuses or the absurd production speed generated by officers, and they can compensate with more unique units. They deserve it.
The devs say there will be an additional patch at the end of the month with new content, just 3 or 4 weeks after the DLC. If this patch is already large with all the balance changes, I can’t imagine what extra things they’ll bring, maybe new units at least for China Main civ (not ZhuXi), but who knows.
Same here. Here are my three specific proposals.
First, swap the Zhanma Swordsman for the Chinese Grenadier. This restricts the unit to the Ming Dynasty, which would have a much smaller impact on game balance. Just let ZXL bring out the unit’s potential. The Chinese really don’t need it on their side.
Second, Bed Crossbow. If it is too game-breaking, move it to the Clock Tower. Or better yet, just have it replace the Springald entirely.
Third, the unique Chinese Crossbow. Many people overlook this, but I care more about the appearance than the balance. China has over two thousand years of crossbow history — it’s a quintessential Chinese weapon. Yet, the game uses a European windlass crossbow, which is a huge blow to historical accuracy.
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In fact, many of the original 8 civs suffer from a lack of uniqueness. The English might be kept simple for the sake of simplicity, but others — at least including the HRE, Rus, and Mongols — are clearly lacking in identity. I just haven’t touched on their reworks in this post since we’re focusing on Chinese.
Yes, it was even worse, because if you only count the military unique units, the English only had the Longbowman and the HRE only the Landsknecht, and in the latter case, it was almost never seen, which made the game very simplistic and similar… that’s why I appreciate the variant civs, to make the game more unique…
You forget the Black Rider, but this is indeed a unit that is rarely seen. Perhaps they should make it easier to get, especially since the HRE isn’t OP right now.
Yes, I mean when the game came out in 2021…
I’ve looked into the Jin’s specific design, and I agree that the Bed Crossbow isn’t a great fit for a port. Perhaps I could shelve this topic for the time being.
However, my suggestion for the Zhanma Swordsman stands — I’d recommend swapping it in to replace the Chinese Ming unit.
The Chinese Grenadier already has very limited use in games, so you could totally replace it with this melee unit, which would also synergize better with the Spirit Way buff. As for University tech, no need to worry, the Chinese could have a Zhanma Swordsman with higher attack but lower HP to differentiate it from the Jin’s version. Since this unit has been pushed back to the Ming Dynasty, its impact on game balance will surely be minimal.
And regarding the Shenbi Bowman (or Eastern Crossbow), my suggestion remains the same: whether it’s just a weapon model swap or a brand new unique unit, as long as the appearance changes, it will be great. After all, the distinctive Eastern Crossbow is the most quintessential and unmistakable feature of the Song army.
This is the most straightforward way for you to recreate the Song-Jin wars with the Chinese and the Jin Dynasty in standard matches. Please don’t let it exist solely in the campaign, Devs.
Given that Chinese’s economy is very strong, do you think they really need a specialized crossbow unit? Or is your focus primarily on the weapon’s aesthetics?
Honestly, it’s mostly about the visuals. My requests have always centered on improving historical accuracy while keeping the game balanced.
The core issue has been stated before, let me emphasize it again: the weapon equipped by the standard crossbowman in the game is completely is totally European-style, and there’s a distinct visual difference from Eastern crossbows.
The most glaring difference is that Eastern crossbows Don’t use Cranequins or Windlasses to reload.
And then there are the discrepancies I mentioned earlier, like the different trigger placement and the width of the stock.
So currently, both the reload animation and the weapon model are severely inaccurate. This is arguably the most serious visual error currently existing for the Chinese and Mongol factions in the game.
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The campaign launches tomorrow.
Depending on how it goes, we might be able to request some of its elements for the main Chinese civilization.
According to a teaser image, the Song-Dynasty civ of the campaign, includes Bed-Crossbows.
At most, we could consider requesting that China receipt them in the next patch.
And if not, we’ll keep pushing: Just like we did with the Akincis, which the Ottomans ultimately got, or the Rectangular Shields for the Japanese cavalry, with the same result.
Technically, it launches today…
Indeed, the Bed Crossbow is great.
On top of that, we could also piece together some new units using existing campaign assets. For instance, you could take the Zhanmadao Swordsman model and adapt it to create the long-handled battleaxe seen in the campaign, that could totally work as a Song Dynasty-style unit. This would also help rebalance the unit strengths.
Right now, the dynasty units for the Chinese in the Yuan and Ming don’t really work in practice at all, so they could easily be replaced with brand new units.
Hmm… to be more specific, personally I’d suggest further reducing the Fire Lancer’s torch damage, bringing it down to the same level as the Knight’s is fine, it doesn’t need to be too high. However, its movement speed could be increased to match the Horseman’s. Additionally, if its line of sight were increased, it could serve as a replacement for the Scout, just like the Yuan Rider. On top of these changes, if the Spirit Way’s attack speed buff could apply to all cavalry, mixing Fire Lancers in with Horsemen or Lancers would become much more appealing.
As for the Grenadier, I’ll just say that nobody really needs this unit in that time anymore. It would be better to just replace it.
I sometimes think it would be good to merge the original China with Zhu Xi. Zhu Xi is like a half-fantasy civilization mixed with Oriental elements, rather than reflecting actual history like the Jin Dynasty.
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Ha, looks like we’re on the same page.
I actually proposed this on Tieba before, but the feedback was pretty negative. Players who were already used to those two styles felt uncomfortable with the changes, and they made up at least half of the replies to my post.
So eventually, I had to shift my focus to just improving the existing gameplay style.
Maybe don’t merge, but rework then into Ming and Song (abandoning the current Tang-Song-Yuan-Ming system)
So far, your insights on unit models have been very encouraging. However, in my opinion, rather than updating the crossbows of the Far Eastern civilizations(it is still a question), the developers should focus more on modifying the weapons of the Chinese Lancer and Horsemen.
The Jin Dynasty’s Horsemen have very ornate spears and shields, especially in Age 4, but they lack unique technology. Also, their spears are somewhat overly flamboyant and large, and look a bit like they’re pieced together from textures. I would prefer them to have more textured models, but not so boring as the default spear models, and for ZXL and the Chinese to have horesemen’s spear models similar to the Jin Dynasty’s.
Furthermore, regarding the Lancer of China and ZXL, the Guan Dao is not a lance used for charging. Perhaps the Lancers of China and ZXL should use spears for charging, then draw their Guan Dao for melee combat—or, more simply, they should always use only the Guan Dao for both charging and melee attacks.
Additionally, while the Jin Dynasty’s Storm Spear technology is impressive, its spearhead model is rather odd, as a model and appearing more like a simple patchwork of textures. Hopefully, a better model will replace it.
Furthermore, I strongly urge ZXL and the Chinese handcannons to use the helmets from their Jin Dynasty counterparts (also Chinese Archers in Age 4). Currently, the Chinese Handcannons, if you zoom in, look far too similar to the English Handcannons.
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Of course, these suggestions for improving unit visuals are all beneficial, and I highly recommend you bring them up under any relevant thread.
The reason I haven’t brought them up is simply a matter of personal priorities. I tend to focus more on the glaring visual errors. For instance, the crossbowman’s reload animation is painfully obvious in-game, not to mention the spear flash bug (which has thankfully been fixed).
As for further unit appearance upgrades, it’s certainly a great idea and I would definitely support it.
Thank you for addressing the Elite Men at Arms weapon. I already post it as a bugged and should be patch out.
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