Are they? Only time I ever see them in high level play is on hybrid maps.
So if it’s irrelevant, nerfing it won’t change anything. Hit their scouts.
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“nope” what? as in “nope pikes don’t counter cav” or?
you can say that about all civs that aren’t trash unit specialists. this is not a Franks-only problem.
Yes, they do in fact still have elite skirmishers despite the lack of those upgrades. ‘lmao’.
ahh ok, so because franks dip late game when gold runs out, that means we can’t nerf them, despite in team games where trading is a thing, that’s not an issue.
Elite skirms without bracer or imp armor are very easy to out micro
Yep. Persians are boring and don’t have anything special going on, but they are underrated. Pretty solid civ. Just like the Slavs.
I don’t think that’s the problem here either. Their early game can be good, I mean Vikings, Burmese, Huns have amazing Feudal play, Franks can be the same. I think it’s okay to have another good scout civ next to Sicilians and Magyars. The problem with Franks is that their transition in Castle Age is so smooth, that other civs have a hard time to compete.
that doesn’t change the fact that they have access to skirmishers, ok?
Btw holy **** Teutons doesn’t have Bracer either. pls buff because bottom tier without bracer kekw.
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I agree with this one.
They didn’t have extra HP for scouts and Chivalry either. So stating Franks without berry bonus is (a censored word) is not 100% true. Reducing the bonus from 25% → 15% literally did nothing. So the UTs needed to swap and still they are top 1. Now you can instead say, why nerf something so insignificant? Well, I’m fine with removing/reducing cheaper castle or extra HP for scouts.
Forgot squires (very important against other knight civs) and THX buffs.
I don’t think so. Consider free Bloodlines. Also consider their win rate drop rate after that bonus nerfed. Yep, no win rate drop at all (Very insignificant).
Yeah that’s a good argument. I think removing berry is more appealing due to the fact that it can be moved to another civ while extra HP for scouts can’t be given to another as Mongols already have that. Removing berry bonus is like killing 2 birds with 1 bullet. Nerfing Franks and buffing Malay/Burmese/Vietnamese/Portuguese/Koreans…
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Just because you have access to it doesn’t make it a option.
Should tatars or lithuanians go ths/Champion?
Should britons go cav archer?
that’s actually the definition of what makes it an option, but okay.
A nerf to fransk that you just agreed could end up doing nothing. Which means they would rhen need to be nerfed again.
Well you just said elite skirms without bracer and armor were an option…
hence my answer to the initial post. its too insignificant of a nerf, hence why you need to hit them where it hurts; their gold income, infantry options, cheap castles or knight production rate.
What about change the cavalry straight +20% hp bonus for 5%/10%/20% (feudal/castle/imp)?
which is correct. it is indeed an option.
the question of whether or not its a good or a bad option is subjective, but it is an option nonetheless.
just like cav archers for britons is an option.
i would settle for 20% cav hp bonus kicking in at castle age instead of feudal.
Go look at the winrate graph linked above and tell me what hitting those is actually going to do? All of those are late game nerfs when they don’t need to be hit. They need to have their early game slowed. Which is why scouts or berries makes most sense. I’d hit scouts
The knight civ having inferior knights in castle makes no sense
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i don’t really think its fair to nerf their scouts though. the 20% hp bonus was changed from knights only to all cav for a reason. so you’re basically saying that buff should just be flat out completely reverted to its pre-african kingdoms state.
the reason franks are strong in early game is hardly because of faster berry farm, but because they get 20% cav hp in feudal and free farm upgrade, making their early game cav stronger than other civs along with the transition from herd/hunt/berry into farms really smooth.
if you move the 20% cav hp bonus to castle age instead of feudal you’d see a huge dip in their early game stats though.
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Remove berries.
Add new bonus: scout and spear lines +1 attack per age, starting in the castle age (+2 total).
Buffing their 1v1 lategame without touching their TG lategame, nerfing their earlygame, still keeping the civ’s melee focus.
This is just something I thought of in the shower though, don’t take it too seriously.
These would be better suited on other civs
I do agree their early game needs changes.
Such as? Military bonuses can be easily recycled, look at tatar, turk and indian light cavalry.