Ideas to buff the vietnamesse

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
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Vietnamesse… man, I wish they were better, because, to me, they’re a civ that’s full of potential. The problem with them, I guess, it’s not from a military order (pun intented), but rather from a economic order.

The bonus for their archers is not bad per se, the thing is thatevery other archer civ has also at least one eco bonus (Mayan, Britons, Ethiopians, Chinese).
The problem with them is that they are, indeed, always behind. So, how to buff them?

After think it for a while, I came with an eco bonus that could be given. Also, I though about possibile complementary ones:

I don’t know that much about Vietnamesse people of the middle ages, except that they where good farmers, and people that where connected with the earth in general. That make them learn about the nature, and their techiques
Tought about that, and how always behind they’re. And came with this idea:

Let’s give vietnamesse early eco technologies.
Mill, Lumber camp and mining camp, and TC techs available one age in advance.
It’s expensive, but at the same time, the most you invest, the most advanced you’re. It gives vietnamesse a lot of different options and strategies. You don’t need faster lumberjacks if you have double-bit axe in dark age, for example.

Also, I think they they could use a little military buff, so here are some suggestion that could get along with the idea of the eco bonus.

  • 10% cheaper military units (except siege)
    Not so sure about this one, but it’s a possibility. Could make them spam to many units though.

  • Armor techs in blacksmith techs available one age in advance
    I like the idea of give them mometum and it goes with bothearly tech vibe and bulky soldiers (also, would favor opening scouts, so transition to elephants it’s easier)

  • Give them elephants in feudal age
    Again, inspiring myself in the cumans, and theirs early rams. An elefant is super expensive in feudal, but it could be deadly aswell.

  • Chatras gives also either +1 attack to elephants or + 10 bonus againts pike line
    I always feels that the nerf of the attack to the elephants was heavy for vietnamesse. They don’t get blast furnance, so thiers elefantos could get some extra attack.

So, what are your oppinions? Should they get an eco bonus plus a military one, or only one tipe of buff?

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OMG. Welp, all these techs 1 age earlier are not going to be usable since their cost is suited to a Castle age economy. So you will be better off getting them in Castle anyway.

The difference is that rams are countered by VILLAGERS, while feudal age spears will melt to elephants. The best comparison is with Malay since their fast age up + cheap ele = potential to rush with eles against a feudal opponent. To balance that out, they literally only get the first armor upgrade and Husbandry as cav techs. You definitely don’t want that to happen to Vietnamese.

Ok this one is interesting. I once thought that maybe Viets being bad at 1v1 is normal cuz it’s a team civ right? But there is another team civ: the Berbers, whose only eco bonus (more villie speed is negligible for eco) is cheaper knights, and yet they are pretty decent because it turns out to be good unlike +4 hp on archers. Actually if Vietnamese had the Maya bonus they would be way more relevant. Unfortunately Mayans came years before so we need to find another way to balance this. I also find interesting how Vietnamese is the worst civ because it only gets military bonuses while all Mayan bonuses are economic and they always had been a meta civ.

I’ve read this kind of suggestion on Reddit and it turns out than this farming specialty only became a thing for Vietnames in recent history. And rice culture developing (and thus not being luxury anymore) came from 18 century Khmer (so it’s not the origin of the Khmer bonus either I guess) Ultimately if a “pure-balance bonus” fix the civ like for Khmer, it’s fine (I trust the devs to find another fun bonus)

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I personally believe that would make them a broken OP civ. Make 1 elephant and they will need quite some spears to kill it.

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Oh, it’s bad, both Per and Se. HP bonuses are a good idea for melee units (Viking infantry, Frank Cav, Celt Siege Rams), but don’t do much for archers, due to their low base hp and the marginal returns archers would get by being tanky (and if they’re focus fired/microed down, the bonus doesn’t matter at all). By contrast, the Briton, Mayan and Ethiopian archer bonuses all lend themselves to increased damage output. There’s absolutely no reason to pick Vietnamese for the archer line, but their Rattans/eles and ImpSkirms might be a reason to pick them.

I agree that elephants in Feudal would be OP. For reference, battle elephants cost around as much in total resources as 2.5 scouts, and it’s not uncommon for players to make 5+ scouts in Feudal. And of course, eles are far more powerful than scouts, and couldn’t be countered by monks in Feudal, only spears, which do an ok but not outstanding job, and the elephants will crush everything else.

The idea of getting access to eco techs an age early is creative, and perhaps it could work. An idea I had that would make them a fair bit stronger is to make their free conscription available in Castle Age. With that and maybe 50 wood off each archery range, they could be pretty good.

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Vietnamese definetely need buff since they are underpowered. Even Khmer get farm buff to be more usable now.

Best idea would be:
ECO:
Berries last 33% longer (you get 33% more food from them)
or
You get Extra berries nearby your TC at start of the game (Maybe 2 bushes ?)

Military
Delete useless Paper money tech and replace by military tech bonus
New tech cost 450W 300G
+ 1 attack to archers and skrimishers
Britons have +3 range in IMP, so +1 attack to Vietnamese archers is reasonable and historically ok as well.

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I like the idea of replacing paper money. The +1 attack for foot archers sounds good. Also something like “gives foot archers 10% more moving speed” could be nice.

Regarding economy, they could have some discounts in eco upgrades or in blacksmith technologies. Lets say 20%.

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Some of them yes. Others would pay for themselves. I mean, is an snowball effect. You start slower, but then you produce more effectively than others

Hahaha didn’t knew that

Yeah, I know. It’s just I don’t know how to change it. I mean, what should give them instead of more hp? More speed? More armor? Give them +1 attack and range would be nuts.

I don’t believe paper money it’sa bad tech Viets are a team-playing civ, and I think they shouls keep this. But I agree archer line need a buff. Extra armor, maybe? Extra attack?

I don’t think that’s enough, though. They need to be faster in resource production

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It won’t fix the fact that it’s a slow food source. I mean the Tatars are the least played Last khan civs and overall not played a lot even tho they have a better bonus on sheeps, which are a fast food source.

While it feels quite underpowered in team game because of trade, it’s useful in 1v1 because of limited gold (unlike Cuman mercenaries which is only good in team games). It was already better than market in HD and now that it costs 0 gold it’s a straight advantage.

Aztecs have Atlatl already so it looks like a big rip-off.

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What about replacing the hp buff for their archers with this:

defensive archers-upgrades for free
archers gets +1 attack agains archer line/knight line

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This would serve asi fact, you need to build farms later, since your villagers can spend more time on berries. Picking berries is still faster food source than farm considering more villagers can gather at time.
However still someone can propose a better ECO bonus :slight_smile:

Actually Paper money is considered useful in team games more than in 1v1
BTW, was really paper money invented in Vietnam ?

Aztecs have +1 attack and +1 range to Skrimishers.

My proposal would add +1 attack to arbalests, Skrimishers, Cav. archers and Rattan archers

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Just like with the Tatar sheeps, except those go faster and allow you to go faster, while this bonus would still be sloooooow (the Frank bonus is good because it makes berries fast instead of slow)

Barely. If this isn’t top tier on sheeps it’s not gonna help a lot on berries.

So you think getting gold against food/wood much more efficiently than the market isn’t good in 1v1? If I want more gold in team game I would prefer a Spanish/ Aztecs (or heck! Even Burmese) buddy since those bonuses are long term.

Actually it was the Chinese under Kublai Khan (if I remember well) However Vietnam was successfull in adopting it, so you could rename the tech “Monetary Reforms” for it to be 100% historically accurate.

So it’s a rip off of both Atlatl and Recurve bow, and a not really inspired bonus otherwise. Seriously Rattans are a good unit, their only problem is that they are on a bad civ.

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100% agree on that. That’s why I didn’t propose any buff to them, altough they could get a better frame delay. Or also, to make it historically accurate, and in vibe with anti-archer vibe, bonus damafe against chu ko nu

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Welp bonus against chu ko nu would fix the embarassing fact that despite what the campaign tips of the first Le loi mission claim the Chu ko nu is actually cost effective against Rattans 11

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Speaking of campaigns: as far as I know the only unit that gets bonus against only one unit in the whole Age series is the campaign exclusive Hoop thrower in AoE3 that are supposed to counter Janissaries only (but even at this they are bad)

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The chu ko nu is effective against everything, specifically those anti archers unit. I think this boost to rattan archer would intensify the “anti-archer archr civ” theme they have

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By the way. After thinking about it, I concluded that they should get the eco tech 25% cheapers when in advance (like that, you can get bow saw in feudal for the price of double-bit axe)

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my proposal is to give Vietnamese the ability to see all Gaia at the beginning of the game. This gives them excellent scouting, knowing exactly where to go for sheep, boars, where to avoid wolves so that their drush can land home immediately, and possibly give them an eco advantage being able to steal from their opponent.

i don’t think all civilizations should have a real eco bonus early as that just makes all civs feel more or less equal there. instead, giving civilizations other ways to compensate I think would be more helpful.

if they are given a military bonus, i would go for free xbow upgrade or free ballistics. that would help give them a powerful spike in castle age. especially free ballistics.

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It’s a quite original bonus, but i think it’s too op. You can lame and trush with 100 % accuracy

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Here are my 2 cents. Let’s discuss these potential bonuses:

1a. Elite Elephant upgrade is 50% cheaper
1b. Faster elephant attack speed
1c. Elephants are trained faster (this might be unsustainable because of the Vietnamese eco tho)

2a. Faster archer attack speed (can be unique tech)
2b. Cheaper archers, especially rattan archer
2c. Archer regenerates HP when not attacking (great for hit and run)

3a. Farms are built instantly (works great for early game)
3b. 2 villagers can work on 1 farm (works great for T90)

4a. Houses generate tiny amount of resources (this reflects Vietnamese’s taxation)
4b. Villagers generate tiny amount of resources (this can be a civ bonus or a unique TC tech)

  1. Economic upgrades are cheaper

  2. Houses are more expensive (like 75w) but gives 6pops + 1 villager when completed

7a. Lumberjacks don’t bump into eachother
7b. Lumberjacks don’t need to drop off (just like khmer farms)

PS: free conscription is a joke so it can be safely replaced by something else

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I like the instant farms. Don’t know if makes sense for vietnamese or could make a good balance difference, but it sure is a good feature for a possible future civ.