As much as I would like a Mesoamercan or other Native American nation to be added to AoE4 sometime in the future, I wonder if the lack of horses would get in the way of their scouts’ ability to pick up animal carcasses. I imagine a deer or wild boar carcass would be a bit heavy for one dude to carry. Would they simply not be able to carry wild animals at all, or would each scout unit be made up of two men instead of one?
i think it would be one guy with a wheelbarrow. Maybe wheelbarrow upgrade for meso civs also acts like pro scouts xD
native american civs did not use wheels so had no wheelbarrows. for that matter boar and sheep were imported by europeans. at any rate, there is no question that capable civ designers can work with any civ
1 Like
Recuerda que lo que cargan los exploradores son solo VENADOS. El Jabalí, hasta la fecha, no se puede cargar, no se si por algún problema de Script que cuando los desarrolladores mejoren también permitirán más tipos de fauna, o por razones de mecánica. El punto es:
-
Que creo que un explorador nativo puede llevar un venado en su espalda tranquilito sin que se vea poco natural, otra cosa sería que le pidan cargar un elefante.
-
Las civ. mesoamericanas usaban la caza y recolección, así que un método para llevar la comida a la aldea tenían, tampoco estaban tan atrasados, sino que su tecnología evolucionó en otra dirección.
-
Si bien no desarrollaron la rueda, y menos el Wheelbarrow, si desarrollaron bolsas y cuerdas para atar las cosas, asi como las andas, sino llevaban las cosas atada a un tronco y lo cargaban 2 tipos. Tampoco es que en Europa se les haya ocurrido la carretilla tan temprano, la tecnología de la era romana se perdió y recién volvió a ser redescubierta en el siglo XIII en algunas zonas de Europa.
-
Los incas traían todo en Llamas, o usando un sistema de troncos en hileras para los pesos grandes (lo que me recuerda a un capítulo antiguaso de Pokemon donde Ash tiene que trasladar a snorlax con troncos), aunque por un venado, simplemente lo mete en una bolsa, o lo ata con una cuerda y lo lleva en la espalda atado con Telas grandes si no hay llama disponible.
ENGLISH:
Remember that what the explorers load are DEERS, the Boar to date cannot be loaded, I don’t know if it is due to some Script problem that when the developers improve they will also allow more types of fauna, or for mechanical reasons, the point is:
-
That I think a native explorer can carry a deer on his back without looking unnatural.
-
Many civs. of Mesoamerican were hunters and recolectors, so they had a method to bring food to the village, they weren’t that backward either, but their technology evolved in another direction.
-
Although they did not develop the wheel, and less so the Wheelbarrow (wich it is not that it was discovered so early in Europe either, the technology of roman age was lost for centuries and was only rediscovered in the 13th century in some areas of Europe), they did develop bags and ropes to tie things, just like the litter, otherwise they carried things tied to a trunk and carried it by 2 guys.
-
The Incas for example brought everything in Llamas, or using a system of logs in rows for the big weights (which reminds me of an old Pokemon chapter where Ash has to move snorlax with logs), although for a deer, he just puts it in a bag, or tie it with a rope and carry it on the back tied with large cloths if no llama is available.
There’s an animal called Javelina/Peccary which is native to America. AoE2 has it but there it’s just a renamed boar.
As for sheep, they could just be replaced with turkeys (or llamas and alpacas for South America), also like in AoE2
Edit: For reference, this is a javelina:
And this is a wild boar:
1 Like
Maybe the Native American will be how their counterparts of AoE 3…maybe they could hunt jaguars and capybaras and not boars…
1 Like
The scout could be accompanied by a dog which could use a dog travois for transporting carcasses.
6 Likes
The Japanese could not eat meat due to an official decree prohibiting its consumption for many centuries. This is beautifully illustrated in AoEIII where the Japanese are not even allowed to hunt or herd animals. However, they are the only ones who receive cherry orchards that can be harvested for food as a replacement as well as shrines that generate resources. And this is not just a facile replacement (like AoEIV often does) to hunting animals but has its own clear advantages and disadvantages compared to it.
So, what would appear to be a historical shortcoming for their design in the game turned out as a great opportunity to create a unique civ, with a distinct character and its very own gameplay mechanics and strategies. It is definitely possible to harmoniously combine history and gameplay but only as long as a developer wants and can do it.
Have you played AoEIII at all? I suggest you try it out to see how history and gameplay are mixed together and how the Aztecs’ lack of horses is compensated in a variety of other ways that not only make Aztecs a playable civ but also a refreshing and truly different choice for those who reasonably get bored of seeing and doing the same things over and over.
3 Likes
The big civilizations Inca, Mayas and Aztecs were focused on their cities. While the other tribes in the rural area away from the big civilizations were a lot like the Mongols. They still live close with nature.
They had small villages of huts in the deep jungle, the light would not touch them, they travel mainly by paddling over the rivers and try to travel over land as less as possible and always lived close to water. If there is no river than look for a lake.
In daily life everyone had certain tasks, someone would wake up and wake a few others and kids to help out. They would put a fire on front of their hut to see who is up and then team up to do the chores to prepare breakfast. After that they would go to the river to wash. And then the men went hunting, and the women would make items or prepare certain parts of the food. Like making clothing, jewelry or other things.
The women were mostly in charge, and there were often wise women who would philosopher.
The men are mostly focused on hunting, planting ‘cost ground’ where they would grow food like plants with yummy foods to attract deer or other huntable animals.
They would only take a certain wood to use for their houses or their bows and their boats. Considering to let nature mostly intact.
They always believed to be one with their group, if someone found meat it was theirs instead of his or hers. So they literally shared everything together. Including some tribes had forms of #### #### or #### ##### They believe nature is an active being, as if the planet is alive. And often offer their first drink or meal to nature as a sacrifice.
Most tribes had farms and would produce maize, from which they ate and baked bread (panbati, which the portuguese and italians now call polenta).
When the men would hunt, the animals were often huge and gave them a lot of meat, they would barbecue the meat on the spot and cover them so the food will not rot. They did not need a refrigerator, instead everything was put above the fire.
When paddling they would sometimes stop and hunt or gather food, and barbecue on the boat. Or hunt for fish.
Once in a while they visit certain places for certain resources, so their toponomy was based on natural objects like a certain wood, food or mineral that could be found. Once in a while if they needed something on the longterm they would go to travel to visit there and gather the necessary resources.
They traded with neighbouring villages/groups but also long distance to other regions because some had speical food or special minerals necessary for their tools.
Mostly the sea was seen as a spiritual place where the river met the sea or ocean. And sometimes they would undertake a pilgrimage to the end of the delta and do rituals.
Besides that in their own village like in AoE3, the village was like a circle with the huts around the center. And often a big campfire where they dance and do rituals or hang out together.
The items we know today as maracas and other instruments were from the native americans and they were used in their rituals. Just like certain dances. Dancing was very common, for a happy occasion but also for a burial.
When the Europeans would visit, they saw them first as friendly and were interested to trade with them. Then they found out their intentions weren’t friendly. But still they would help them settle.
When the natives would come in contact with the Europeans and their different items, a person that would come back and show what he had, the item for example a golden ring would go around the town and would meet every person because it would be passed around. It was theirs, and stealing didnt exist. Only when the europeans arrived did they adapt and did their mind change slowly.
These are stories from a book written by a Caribe native from Surinam.
As an Arawak descendant i know our tribes were quite similar, this can give you insight in how the rural tribes on the continent lived. And the coastal ones or on the islands lived very much the same.
Only the natives from the city civilizations had a different life, more a city life like europeans a life that is more specialised were everyone is part of a whole and has one task. A specialisation society where everyone is part of a big wheel. While the royalty live like gods, like in mesopotamia and egypt.
The weapons mostly used were bows, slingers, spears, slingshots, darts, blowpipes. So there is quite a variety to make.
Exceptions are the aztec macahuatl obsidian sword, and the northern american axes. And probably other things i dont know of.
Concerning warfare it’s all about stealth and guerilla tactics. The jungles were thick, and the europeans would never dare to go deep outside the areas they cleared or away from the rivers. So they could use all the cover and their known paths and places. Just like Germanic tribes in their forests fighting Romans.
Same for the Aztecs and the Mayans. Numbers, stealth and guerilla tactics.
I hope this can give you some insight into their societies.
Some ideas for the game.
The possibility to pack buildings when resources are exhausted.
The ability to build a ‘cost ground’ which attracts huntables and herdables and can be used to have control over a hunting spot. (In Age of Mythology there is something called the Lure its the godpower of Poseidon, you place it and many animals in the neighbouring area come walking over to this object).
Immense gathering bonus for huntables and herdables and maybe a temporary object named barbacoa (barbeque) which boosts the gathering from huntables and herdables. Or like make it a costless gather spot, or maybe cost 5 wood or something.
Maybe a religious building over a stonemine, like a cave or a rock formation. From where they can train Paddlemen (wiseman/wisewoman) or Priest or a Cascui (chieftain). They were usually envoys for diplomacy, cast spells or settle disputes. It would be nice to see a unit that has several special abilities which involve nature but also things like poisoning a towncenter or make a gathering building unusable.
Or maybe a chieftain hut where you can pick certain technologies. For example cannibalism which makes your soldiers able to gather food from dead bodies. Or sacrificial rites which gives the ability to capture enemy units and sacrifice them at a ritual building or temple.
For the Mayans, i dont know if the aztecs also have it. It would be interesting to add a Ballcourt where soldiers can play and become stronger. But after a play the strongest is sacrificed and returns the resource costs. The winners of the game were actually sacrificed to the gods and not the losers, atleast in Mayan society.
For the Mayans it would be interesting to add hand cannoneers, because of the same reason as the revolution for Mexico to Mayans in AoE3. The region Quintana Roo which is the east of Yucatan actually had a modern revolution and turned into an independent Mayan state and became independent from Mexico. It was called Chan Santa Cruz, it existed from 1850 to 1901. But that is probably outside the range of the games timeframe.
Also in the region between Mayapan and Tulum in some areas there are paved roads. For example to travel faster from city to city. Maybe something similar to the mongol tower speedboost would be great!
Or like in Rise of Nations where you have a support wagon which boosts movement speed and armor.
Medieval 2 total war Kingdoms also has great examples of Aztecs and Maya units like the atl atl (arrow thrower), there the mongols have naffatun but that would also be possible for mayas and incas.
Well we have units on walls, how about giving them the ability to climb walls with ropes?
Mayan warfare actually depicts towers infront of enemy walls that were used to snipe the archers on the defensive walls. Or imagine a siege tower that can be rolled to a location and then unpacked to give it a permanent position and you can’t move it again. And you can place archers on it like a normal wall. It’s kinda how Kasva used to play his infamous strategy placing Stonetowers near your city and attack you, it’s actually how the Mayans fought lol.
Since we have the Malian mechanics of stealth i’m really curious if that could also work for the mesoamericans and native americans. Or maybe a form of “allied territory” where they gain bonusses and stealth. And in enemy territory their military would have normal stats.
-Greetings from Nick_The_Hun
1 Like
la idea de darle a los nativos infanteria de choque fue muy buena
1 Like
Yeah or at least they need to return the travois villager…
Si,y a la vez te modificó todo el sistema de counters…
With how complicated it would be to implement the Native American civs into AoE4, I doubt that they would ever be added to AoE4.
I think it’s pretty likely they’ll be added. They’re already hinting at it:
1 Like
Na,they will be added for sure…if they are in AoE 3 (that is a game much more complex than AoE 4 for the cards and the homecity system) they are more chances for be added in AoE 4,at least the Aztecs and Incas…
1 Like
Si es asi espero que sean muy unicas y tengan sus propias armas de asedio como en aoe 3 por que si simplemente tienen unidades de asedio estandar seria una cagada enorme (perdon pero no encontre una palabre menos dura que esa)
Ah. I didn’t know about that hint but thanks for that quote link.
Now still, the Americas wasn’t so explored so much during the Medieval era (Vikings did went to North America during that era but they didn’t settle there permanently) as how it was during the Colonial era (AoE3 timeline). So, I get that in AoE4, it’s not as complicated as AoE3 to add in a Native Amercian civ but from what I remember, the developers did state one time that the civs of the Americas wouldn’t be added because of the developers wanting AoE4 to go the more historical accurate route as mentioned by someone who created this poll one time about Native American civs.
1 Like
They don’t have to do standard siege, they just have to be creative. Unfortunately I don’t have high hopes for that when it comes to the AoE4 devs.
However, theres loads of good ideas put forward on how to do native siege in threads like this:
1 Like
There is no hint. That’s a pure copium thread. IMO there are still so many good options outside of Meso/New world civs that would be cool and more historically appropriate. Why do we need meso civs now when we still don’t have
-Southeast Asian Civ
-South Indian Civ
-Very requested/popular civs such as Norse/Byz/Japanese
1 Like
Llamas might work for an SA biome, I think turkeys would look pretty silly bounding after scouts. For other biomes goats could also be an option.
Boar variants would also be nice.
I think they could still have an American scout unit on foot carry a deer, or drag one on something. No one can carry the boars already.
1 Like