Imperial Camels - Why not make them generally available?

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
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  • Imperial Camels should be a regular upgrade, like Halberdier and Paladin, available to more nations nations.
  • Imperial Camels should only be available to Indians.

0 voters

One of the biggest perks of Age of Empires 2 DE has been that none of the nations or techs are hidden behind a separate paywall of any sort. That means, Steppe Archers can be available to Mongols. That might mean that Battel Elephants might be available to Indians one day.

It might also mean that we don’t have to limit the Imperial Camels to just the Indians. When The Conquerers came out, two new upgrades for current units became available to most of the nations (I’m so sorry Turks). The Halberdier and Hussar. It also gave nations access to the Petards. Sadly, when The Forgotten came out, the Imperial Camel did not follow the same route, leaving it as an exclusive to people that bought the Forgotten. It became a defining feature of India. Later when Rise of the Rajas came out, India did not get the Battle Elephant, leaving it exclusive The Rise of the Rahas.

Now, with DE, we all have access to all the units, and with that interest in mind, I think (with some balances) that it is high time that nations that relied on the camel, no longer rely on just nation bonuses or unique techs to make them worthwhile, but actually gain access to the unique tech of Imperial Camels. Nations like the Berbers, the Saracens and probably the Malians. I realize that this might mean a few balance changes, but if Mongols can get Steppe Lancers, I think a late age, expansive upgrade for Heavy Camels isn’t all that far fetched.

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I like the analysis you did here! :slight_smile:

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I’m pretty much sure the African kingdom new stuff (like new feudal boats and arrowslits) were available to people with the Forgotten only.

Halberdier was introduced because pikemen were way too weak and had quite a hard time countering paladins at all, while light cav needed two buffs (bloodlines and Hussar) because it was just a weak unit line in general.

The Forgotten was initially a FREE mod (that is still downloadable for any AoC CD). And in said mod Imp camels had always been planned as an Indian exclusive.

Because Indians have Elephant archers. It’s not because you don’t se it in 1v1 arabia games it doesn’t exist.

I don’t get it. They already are better than other camel civs, and all in different ways. Why would you tweak them so that they have other stats (even tho they work just fine, and are already unique) and then mess with the rest of their tech tree? The devs have better things to balance anyway.

I realised that I overestimated the SL when I tried to test whether mongol SL are better than knights in Castle (Over buffing civilizations - #52 by CactusSteak2171). You need some holy micro to get them to win vs Malay knights in the first place. They fail to be cost-efficient AND pop-efficient vs other bloodlines-less knights and there is no way they win vs FU knights. Wanting to add another upgrade to otherwise fine units (or adding a strong line of units to a strong civ) couldn’t be more different that making a weak unit more available.

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Arguing for Imperial Camels to exclusive to Indians would be the same as making Paladins exclusive to Celts, and arguing that other nations are just fine in their own way without Paladins, such the Franks or Lithuanians, since they get other bonuses (20% more health and bonus to attack from relics)

And yet the Battle Elephants are exclusive to Rise of the Rajas, despite India having a history of using elephants in warfare, and the Elephant Archer being completely useless in every instance, including team games.

If the Heavy Camel is so great, why does India need to get Imperial Camels? Its either a legit upgrade, in which case other nations should have access to it, or its a useless upgrade, in which case, why bother with it at all.

No, battle elephants and elephant archers are very different. Elephant Archers are never used by good players, while Battle Elephants sometimes are. There is no place in the Indians strategy for Elephant Archer. They are know for getting villagers out more cheaply, shore fishing and camels. They have two native bonuses that revolve around Camels for some reason.

It is different. One is a late age Imperial upgrade while Steppe Lancers are available in the Castle Age. Which do you think would have more impact on games?

When Age of Empires 2 does right by a nation, it does so by representing aspects of that nations style of welfare in 3 ways. First, that nation will generally have access to most, if not all the techs related to that form of warfare (like the Franks with Paladins, and the the Mayans with Archers). Second, the nation might have unique bonuses associated with that form of warfare (Franks have 20% more health, Mayans have cheaper archers) and finally, that nation might have unique techs that are associated with that form of warfare (Chivalry boost Knight production, Obsidian Arrows makes archers artillary).

If we were to take the example of the Camel, the Sacarans were well known for the use of camels in welfare, especially compared to Franks, but also compared to the Chinese. So, you would expect them to have almost 100% access to the techs for the Camel to show they have superior camels. They do get access to all the techs related to camels, except the Imperial Camel. They don’t get any native bonuses to camels, but they do get a single unique tech that gives them 30 more hitpoints (and a unique camel unit).

Before their unique tech (which is late age imperial) the Chinese Camel and the Sarcasen Camel are equal in terms of fighting ability. There is no difference, so they are interchangable. The Indian Camel is superior to both right away though.

For some reason, the Indian Civilization, often associated with Elephants, gets not only a native bonus of +1 pierce armor for camels, but also a team bonus against buildings for camels. This, along with a third unique tech that they don’t need a castle to get, drives home the point that somehow a Civilization that represents India is the top nation for camels.

Now, games break their unspoken rules all the time to make factions more interesting. Khmer does it in a fine way that makes sense and is unique, but to name a nation the Indians (instead of the Mughal) and then make them the Camel Experts, giving them a third Unique Tech to make it happen, that doesn’t seem right. If it where the Berbers or the Sarcasans, traditionally associated with Camels, I could understand the breaking of the rules, because both are know for Camel? Instead, both nations, unlike the Indians, give up one of their two castle unique techs to make Camels more powerful.

Giving the Indias the Unique Imperial Camel upgrade would be like giving making the Paladin upgrade Unique to the Celts. It would be bad enough that the Paladin upgrade was a unique upgrade, instead of widely available, but then you give it to the Celts only? A nation not regularly associated with Knights and mounted troops?

The Imperial Camel, as an Indian Unique tech makes no sense. It breaks the rule of each nation having only 2 Unique Techs available at the Castle (Vietnam was a third unique tech, but it differs in that its very tame, and its a team bonus shared will all other members on the team. Also, Paper Money). At least if it was shared by a few units, it could be seen in the same vein as the Paladin, or the Elite Cannon Galleon. A tech that isn’t unique, but not commonly used.

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As far as I know, the Indian have all upgrades for cavalry, unlike the Celts. And there are bonused cavaliers that are indeed fine without Paladins: Berbers, Malians, Burmese…

https://imgur.com/r/aoe2/bWVY5cw

Because back in 2012 there was only 1 camel civ and they wanted to add an Asian civ.

Welp, the unit that isn’t countered by Korean knights?

Just like the Aztec Champion is totally equivalent to the Chinese champion before Garland wars. Or just like Slav monks are equivalent to Chinese monks before getting Orthodoxy. Or just like Malian light cav is equivalent to Chinese LC before Farimba. Or you could remember than Lithuanian halbs are inferior to Chinese halbs before Tower shield and remain this way even after it’s researched (no, the extra speed doesn’t make up for the lack of armor), and that Teuton rams are inferior to Chinese rams before Ironclad (and still worse at everything else besides tanking melee damage after)

Welp, actually from a cost efficient perpective, Berber Camels are better, and they can also compete from a pop efficiency (ie.if you make an equal number of Berber and Indian Camels fight each other, Indians first win, but then the Berber player can use his savings to rebuild enough camels to take his revenge). Also, did I mention there is stuff like Mayan eagles being the best even tho no one ever among the Mayan ever fought like that. Even the tech’s name is wrong, El Dorado was supposed to be located in South America, not Central America!

Technically it’s a generic upgrade unlocked by a civilization bonus (ie. Samurai don’t do extra damage to imp camels)

No, it wasn’t “breaking an unspoken rule” In AoC for instance, the Aztecs had 1 less civ bonus than today. Then in patch 1.0c they got free loom. And then in the Forgotten it was changed for +50 gold at start. Same for Spanish, who initially had no faster firing gunpowder, and Korean, who got faster fortifications in AoF, then got nerfed in HD, and then got a whole new bonus in DE. This kind of rework do happen when relevant.

Technically , Paladin were a term for Charlemagne’s most trusted knight, so if we start making things more accurate then just like Imperial Camel shoudl’nt be on Indians, Paladins should be a Frank and Teuton exclusive.

I’ forgot the reason behind Celts getting Paladins (there is one) but the fact cavalry wasn’t that prominent for them is represented by the lack of Bloodlines and armor.

Just like in the Age of Kings, when they decided that Vikings would be the only ones to have 2UU. Or like in the Conquerors, when they decided that Goths would break the rule by having two unique techs. Or in the forgotten, when they decided that allying with someone can unlock a whole new unit. Or in the African Kingdoms, when they decided that Portuguese would get an unique building. All of this are analogous to Imp camels (ie.they changed a rule, and then some other civs beneffited from similar changes, just like with the Indian/Viet upgrades).

Which is a bit in the same vein as Sultan.

Literally 17 civs can get Elite cannon galleons. As of Paladins, they are to be compared to Bombard towers and Siege onagers: a rare, expensive upgrade that is meant to boost some civ’s late game, and that is really different from the average version of the unit. The Imp camel isn’t truely like that, because for instance, when compared to the Saracen camel, it’s just trading +2 attack for -10 HP. Same with Malian camels, it’s trading -1 attack for +20 HP. Oh, and the additional pierce armor, I guess, but camels aren’t meant to kill archers and they will still perform poorly, and it’s not included in the Imp camel upgrade anyway. Now let’s compare the Ethiopian cavalier to the Celt Paladin, who both lack the same upgrades (or Goth Cavalier vs Celt paladin in AoK balance): paying for paladins make the Celt horseman get +40 HP, + 1 pierce armor, +2 attack. All of this is so strong that there is also the need to give it a slightly slower attack rate to compensate! Imp camels were really never meant to replace paladins or be even comparable.

Fun fact: there are 11 Heavy camel civs… and 11 Paladin civs, as well as 11 Siege onager civs. The Heavy camel upgrade is already a “not unique but commonly used” tech.

So basically, all bonused camels are different enough between each other to be unique, but not so that one has a crushing advantage over the rest. The Imperial camel’s only problem is that it has a different appearance, and that it’s innacurate (just like say, Mayan/Inca eagles. Or Cuman Paladin). Those two motives alone aren’t enough to rework whole civs that are balanced and enjoyable to play, especially when other civs need attention and that performance improvement is so important.

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Totally missing the point. The celts have paladins, but you wouldn’t expect them to the only nation with the paladins. You would be surprised if they were because it makes no sense.

The same is true for Imperial Camels. It’s not a huge problem that Indians get the Imperial Camel, but it is a huge issue that nations know for having cavalry don’t have Imperial Camel. I had a whole section on it, that you conveniently ignored because it counters everything you said. I get it, good arguments that can’t be argued are easier to just ignore.

As for your film, you just showing that a team game that has TheViper can come back. But you are right, Daut used, leading to the other team to talk a huge lead in the middle of the game. Of course, you don’t mention that the game was for 2017 before several patches and balance changes.

Comparing Paladins to Heavy Camel is a joke. First, 12 nations have the Heavy Camel upgrade, while 11 nations have Paladin upgrades and Paladins are a late imperial age tech, while Heavy Camels are available at the start at the Imperial Age. The paladin is more similar to the Imperial Camel, which is only available to the Paladin, while the Heavy Camel is more like the Cavalier (which is available to all by 5 nations).

Making the Imperial Camel available like Halbdiers or Paladin is really a no brainer. Especially since the Indian Nation should be reworked.

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I want to reply more, but tax season is a busy time, and I am already late for work.

There is no argument that balance changes would have to be made to make imperial camels more common, but since Indians need a major revamp anyway (the bonus for shore fish is too strong, and the lack of Battle Elephants is an oversight that must be fixed), that can all be part of the same push.

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The problem is that Imperial camels are very powerful, and that makes it more profitable to go camels than cavalry. although I would like some civilizations to have them in imperial that are allied with Indians

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No, since the Imp camel is merely a slightly better Zealotry/Farimba, as explained earlier, that also make the unit look different and rename it. Paladin both rename/reskin the unit and actually makes it much better. A standard Paladin outperforms any other cavalier (even Malian/Berber), while the Imp camel isn’t that much better than its bonused counterparts from other civs.

Hmmm, you mean this?

Welp, not only they lack Imp camels, but they also lack Farimba and Magrabi camels. You could take this further away, after all Chivalry affect all stables units right? Also, I did adress this part as well when I pointed out that many other civs need a special upgrade to make their best unit stand out.

No, it’s 11 Heavy Camel Rider | Age of Empires Series Wiki | Fandom

That is a difference. But it won’t change the fact that it’s just as available as paladin, and that camel are meant to be a restricted option, and an advantage against cav over civs with only the spear line. Just like Paladins are supposed to be an advantage over civs without it.

Also, you want all already bonused camels to get the Imperial upgrade, while most Paladins don’t get bonuses that makes them stronger.

ie.30 civs get them. Does it sounds like a restricted unit?

Let’s say it again: Hussars and Halbs were introduced to correct AoK’s bad balance. Imp camels were a way (among others) to add another camel civ after Saracen.

The fishing bonus, yes, because it creates tons of Indian mirrors. However the lack of Battle elephant isn’t an oversight. Back in 2010, the Forgotten modders were 100% aware that Indians used elephants, so they gave them an elephant unit. They couldn’t predict that years later they would create another elephant unit for different civs. While adding the Steppe lancer to Mongols is pretty inocuous (+ if they were to buff SL they would do it with Mongols in mind) the BE is a good unit, so adding it to a strong civ would force them to rebalance everything. Basically that would be taking a civ concept (current Indian) and deleting it, because the balance changes would be too much to handle. Same for giving Imp camels to civs that already have bonused camels in the first place!

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Well, let’s give longbowmen to all archer civs…

UU has a clear definition my friend

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Welp, the choice between Hussars and Imp camels as shock troops isn’t too hard to make. However, if Indians got paladins as well, trust me they would touch Imp camels only to counter civs with better paladins.

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A more suitable comparison would be Imperial skirmisher, its the equivalent to the halb upgrade for pikemen, going by the argumentation of the Psychcaptain. (Not that I agree with it, balance is way more i important in my opinion.)

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Give this to Incas, their skirms become super effective archers

Just verifying you.

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Because they are a UU!

OMG I just logged in in the forum due to the auto villager thing- I really hope MS is not getting feedback from here.

Please give photon man to all the civs too.

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You logged in to say that? To argue against something no one is suggesting?

Also, quick point, do Samurai do bonus damage to Imperial Camels? If so, it would be the first I have heard about it.

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The forums are just for that! There is no problem with what he did.

Auto-Villagers - #213 by ArchMartinAoE That’s literally the title of the thread. You can’t really blame him for that.

On this very thread.

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I know, I was pointing out that Imperial Camels are a unique unit.

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You were asking if Imp camels get bonus damage from Samurai, not stating anything. And the fact you said it would be the first time you read it makes me fear that this conv is going to be super hard if you forget to read some stuff.

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I was rebutting him with a question, since he stated that Imperial Camels (the topic of this question) was a UU. I am pretty sure that was clear, since the main bonus of the samurai is that they deal bonus damage to UU.

It is called a rhetorical question though, if you are curious. A question that I don’t expect another person to answer because it is blatantly obvious.

By the way, thank you answer the obvious question.

The fact that he decided to end it with a call for Photon man for all civs shows that he wasn’t interested in a discussion just to share his opinion on a fashion that makes me wonder if it ever had any merit.

Actually, I am starting to wonder if you are pleading false ignorance just to be rude.

As always, you responses lead a lot to be desired. Hopefully we will have fewer interactions in the future.

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The fact only 11 civs get access to heavy camel is another obvious point and yet you made a mistake on it. How can I know for sure which “mistakes” are on purpose?

Or you could answer him that the access to the tech is a civ bonus. Because it’s the right answer.

Welp, an occasion to convince him then?

I 100% think what I write, and if I don’t know I ask