It’s a good idea.
+1 from my part.
But I’d also love immunity to conversion to go along with this 
Yes, but then again, if you are letting the archers freely take on your TK you are playing wrong. Back them up with the cheap skirms and TK can just tank the arrows ang get healed by monks later.
No TK buffs will never be good enough if you always theoretize(is that a word?) the worst scenario for them.
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There is no need to reinvent the game and give military units the ability to build stuff or make something unconvertable (which would absolutely change nothing tbh). Just make the unit faster, maybe as fast as a champ and thats it.
TO the guy claiming teutons never go for towers, you really need to try the 8+ vills teuton trush on open maps (probly even the best strat for teut on open maps as flank) or the BBT halb SO treb push on closed maps.
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The problem is that TK’s have no realistic way to prevent the enemy player from creating that worst case scenario. Literally any other UU in the game has a better capacity to at least run away if necessary. If TK’s come up against an unfavorable force, they are just wiped out without any possibility of salvaging the situation. And it doesn’t take much; even a single mangonel can do it, worst case. Try to chase it? Can’t catch up, walk into castle fire.
So then you’re throwing in not just skirms for defense, but also BBC’s for defense, and at that point why the heck are you wasting so many resources on a unit that needs to be protected by the entire army of Qin Shi Huang just to be moderately effective?
And even then, you’re not actually guaranteeing the unit will be useful, just that they’ll wipe out the other part of your army FIRST, then take out the helpless TK’s.
Case 1: Yes, they guarantee winning that particular fight, but they also cripple your economy even more than a NORMAL trush, which means if you fail you’re basically guaranteeing a GG. Heck, even if you SUCCEED you might have a good chance of a GG, since you’ve sacrificed more than just 8+ villagers to get there. Plus the lack of any earlygame eco bonus to actually make a trush a viable strategy. This is borne out in statistics, where Teutons have an abysmal winrate in the early game.
Case 2: Virtually any civ can do that, there’s nothing special about the Teutons there. In point of fact, the Teutons are actually worse at that strategy than other civs, since their BBT’s dont get Bracer. And Crenelations doesn’t even work with BBT’s!
So you have one situation where you take great risk for low statistical payoff, and a second that they’re actually worse than average. Not exactly a compelling argument.
So it all comes down to ‘not reinventing the game’, which sounds more like ‘I don’t like it but have no good reason why’ to me.
Giving the ability for TK to be the ONLY military that can ONLY build towers is not reinventing the game. Please stop exagerating, you’re just twisting around what he suggested.
Or you train some cavaliers along with the Skirms to take on archers + mangonels or Canonneers while making a slow push to get your TK’s where they can do the damage. You can also put them in rams.
Of course if you just train skirms and keep still defending the TK’s you are not making good plays.
You need to attack.
That’s assuming my suggested buffs for TK are in effect, though.
You’re still not justifying their existence. You’re building your army around the assumption that the TK’s are supposed to be there, but in reality, there’s no reason for them to be there in the first place. You could far more easily go with a more standard army composition and do better, cheaper, and faster.
Giving them a unique ability like building fortifications would actually justify their existence for the first time in their life. As-is, they’re only good against AI who will spam infantry or cavalry into them forever while ignoring your monks.
Well you are inventing the “military units can make buildings” , even if its just towers. Very, very likely it would also be close to completly useless. Why should i make a 40 gold 85 food unit to build towers, if vills can do it (like who cares if i lose vills building towers, at the point i am starting to push with towers in imp, i’m nearly always popped and often need to del some vills to get space for trade). I’m not gonna invest tons of res into TKs just to build stuff, if i’m investing into them I want them to fight. It’s just not useful in a real game situation.
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They are there to make sure the enemy overinvest in onagers + archers because they know TK’s will just destroy any melee that comes near them + buildings.
Then you train stuff that counters archers and onagers.(hussars would be nice but Teutons don’t have them afaik)
You don’t need to train hundreds of TK for that. 20 - 30 will do. Make counters for what you are expecting and go for the slow push.
TK can build TOWERS.
That’s a very different proposition than “military units can make buildings”.
Stop stating that I said things I didn’t say, please.
So a TK isnt a military unit. Interesting.
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I don’t think it would be useful. And If so, there’s simpler and more effective strategies to go for. It wouldn’t solve the problem.
I get it. Yoy thing ir would be cool, and different. And maybe, it would be cool and different. But also useless
It’s far more easier to buff their speed
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If I wanted to suggest that military units can build buildings than I would word it exactly like that.
You know very well the difference between these 2 statements:
- TK can build towers.
- Military units can build buildings
But you’re purposefully being intellectually dishonest to help maintain your argument.
Yes, but then you will kill their identity, unless you give such a small buff that doesn’t even matter.
If you buff too much you’ll have to nerf in other areas and then you’re just creating a more costly champion.
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Because towers facilitate everything about their existence, but it’s not typically worth wasting population space and effort into bringing villagers into a danger zone just for the sake of protecting an already-mediocre unit.
How do towers help them? Crenelations. Crenelations requires infantry. That means Champions, Halbs, or TK’s. But the first two have relatively small health pools, so they’ll often just die, rather than finding them with low HP. Low HP? That goes nicely into Herbal Medicine, which Teutons get for free. Except normal towers aren’t large enough to store enough troops for that to matter - but wait! They also get 2x tower garrison room.
Bear in mind that I’m not trying to make the civ overpowered, here. I’m trying to give a historically useless unit a purpose, a reason to build them and not Champions, which do all the same things but with less tremendous weaknesses.
Teutons don’t even have Light Cavalry.
Frankly, investing in TK’s doesn’t even force your enemy into anything, but rather lets them know that with your huge gold investment in the front, they can attack you in the back and expect little to no resistance. There’s no way your slow, ponderous army will be able to respond in time to any sort of attack from the side.
Heavy firepower is irrelevant if the enemy can ignore it until it’s convenient to take it out. Heck, TK’s can’t even be particularly effective once inside an enemy’s town, because villagers can outrun them, and once garrisoned, the TK’s will go down effectively to castle and TC fire.
Being able to build towers would handily subvert this, however. A few TK’s in a town aren’t much to worry about and will die soon, but a tower in the middle of the enemy’s town? That can shut down their eco for much, much longer, and is a serious concern. The TK’s need to be stopped, not just ignored.
Which is how it should be. As slow as they are, allowing TK’s to get near you should be a death sentence, not a mild nuisance.
If you cant agree with that a TK is a military unit, it’s probably senceless to argue further. Again, there is no need that a military units, such as a TK can build buildings, even if it’s just towers. This will not make TKs more viable, or more often used. It’s way easier, cheaper and faster to use villagers for building towers and advancing, even if villagers die faster than TKs.
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If you are able to get a tower in the middle of the town then by that time you’ve already won anyway.
You can only know that after you put in the game and people start testing it.
In late imp you bring vills fwd to push with Towers, nearly always BBTs. I’m afraid, but thats how the game is played in TGs, in mid imp, late imp. You dont use vills to protect TKs, you use the vills to protect the SIege and halbs, to maintain map.
The herebral medicine garrisoning might sound nice in theory, but again this is impractical and barely relevant. Your TKs will die too quickly to garrison in time in the towers and if you garrison them, they will still take quite some time to heal up (even if its just 20-30 seconds), in which they could fight. If any enemy is maintaining a constant push, you cannot just garrison, but you need to fight, to hold the ground. On top of there is a huge amount of micro needed to make this happening. It’s way smarter to invest your micro into SO ground attacks, bombard cannons micro and macro then saving up a few res with TKs.
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I’m experienced enough with 18++ voobly TGs, with thousands of games, on pretty much every availbable map, but mainly arabia, LN and BF (probly where i played most of my games). I can tell you this isn’t useful in practice, you really need to get to a point where res absolutely dont matter at all, far above the 1h mark. Even then it’s probly smarter to invest the extra gold into buying stone, than fancy TK Tower pushes.
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