Even then you’ll save some pop from not needing vills around to build towers, and having lots of TK = more units building which = faster building.
I think it’s worth a try.
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That’s why Crenelations is important. A normal civ has to sacrifice population space for a while to heal, teutons can instead take a useless 1hp unit and turn it into a crossbowman for 30 seconds and then back into a full health unit after. In essence you generate about as much gold and food as 2 gold miners and 2 farmers per garrisoned unit, which is far from useless.
Given that Herbal Medicine and longer healing range monks are basically Teutons only lategame eco bonuses, I think facilitating their use can only be a good thing.
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The same guy pushing the AQ idea is saying that TK are good vs monks 111111
Back on topic, ETK has been forbidden, Axe man got a buff, even the berserker which was perfectly fine got an outstanding UT that allows the unit to kill paladins, the berserk was already an anti trash unit and anti infantry, due their speed and unique patrolling they were capable of killing arbs, now they also kill cavalry, the civ with the strongest boom in game shouldn’t have that UT, that change was completely fan service.
ETK was supposed to be the strongest unit on foot, but guess what, they added the slave warrior from Ethiopians and and it moves x4 times faster and has more attack, don’t get confused etk has 6 pierce armor, but all ranged units can kill’em with ease, +1 PA wouldn’t help the unit.
As i pointed in the other thread, etk loses to aztk and burmese champion(cost effectively), so their title as the strongest infantry in the game was lost since age of conquerors, right now they are just a fancy and expensive unit with bonus vs cavalry that isn’t as effective as the normal halbardier line.
The unit certainly needs more speed.
But if the devs wants to keep their slow speed as civ symbol at least increase their attack to something like 20 or 21 and increase their monk resistance, even higher than light cavalry, cause considering their slow speed the monks would still converting them pretty fast.
And no, etk building towers…i am surprised you didn’t suggest the unit using crossbow at distance and melee and close fights 11.
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Teuton infantry already DO use arrows at long range and melee at close range. <_>
Crenelations, man. Crenelations.
You meant forgotten I guess. Actually they did get a very tiny speed boost in the African Kingdom. Of course it proved to be not enough to buff the unit.
Welp, before that Vikings had trouble with cavalry since they have no halberdier and their bad cavalry was of no help either. Basically you could just roflstomp them with paladins easily. Now chieftains allows them to be good vs cav, as infantry civs should.
You mean shotel warrior? They have a really good attack, but are insanely squishy. They aren’t cost effective against even Champions. They are mainly for sniping TCs and raiding villagers. As a trade-off the civ get no Champion and super bad Hussars. If you were to try and use them like you would for ETK (or champion) they would melt so fast they would be a waste of money as well. Maybe less than TK, but still.
If it was the only issue, then the ETK would be in a much better spot. They would be usable in situation where pop-efficiency>cost efficiency (BF, TG)
They only have bonuses vs buildings and eagles.
Welp, since archers are much easier to field and use than monks, a slow TK would benefit much more from +2 pierce armor.
Did I mention than infantry is less effective than villagers for this? Castle (Age of Empires II) | Age of Empires Series Wiki | Fandom
in late game you dont make keep towers with a civ that has BBTs, TKs arrow fire doesnt help here. You dont have the micro capacities to garrison and ungarrison low HP TKs into towers. At the time you are doing that, you are losing other fronts and most likely thats way more costly than losing TKs.
Also just to clarify something: free herebral medicine and healing from far distance isnt an eco bonus, it’s also barely useful. You are leaving out one of the best lategame ecobonuses in the game: cheaper farms.
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Cheaper farms aren’t a lategame bonus. They save you roughly 3% of your total gathered wood over the course of the game. They’re a midgame bonus, primarily focused on late feudal and early castle, when most of your farms are first being built. That’s of course ignoring Islands, but Teutons suck at islands anyway, so…
As for the Keeps vs BBT debate, Keeps have their place. They’re better against small, fast units, for example, which is mainly what you actually need towers for as Teutons. BBT’s look great until you realize that they massively overkill most archer units.
And of course, that’s ignoring entirely the Castle Age times when BBT’s aren’t even available and building a few towers makes a much bigger difference.
That’s actually not accurate, at least Spirit of the Law’s latest video on the Teutons says so. Infantry provide exactly the same amount of arrows as Villagers.
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Whats your source for that 3% saved wood other than “dude trust me”? If you start off with playing paladins and transition into paladin BBT, while having trade running, then beside a few trebs you only need to invest wood into food production. You still save up a few pop and can take better trades, if wood is running out. Obviously if you go for Full SO the farmbonus isnt helpful, but as long as you keep making food units, or your teammates make food units, teuton farms are the most wood efficient way to get to food after malay fishtraps and feitorias.
Also do you seriously think that someone, who is playing competitively and not just trolling, will make a castle in castle age, produce TKs and try to advance with guardtowers? Thats as good as persian’s castle age war elephant rush. In imp games you dont make Keeps, you always make BBTs, 1 hit kills are just perfect. And if you have 5-6 BBTs in one spot, one BBT is always hitting the target.
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What the…vikings were already a top 5 civ, i was the one suggesting an UT or bonus to increase the damage of their pikeman vs cavalry, chieftains would have been perfect to only pikeman and militia line, berserker was already a powerful unit.
When i read guys saying that it was a good change i notice how bad their understanding is about rts games, the berserker fully upgraded breaks the balance of the game, an unit can’t be strong against most types of units(both gold and trash units), specially if the civ has the biggest economic bonus in the game.
Why would you increase the PA of the unit if the unit is labeled to be weak against archer line, i don’t remember the hidden bonus but i remember watching them die vs castle age xbows despite of having 6 PA.
Shotel warrior is way more effective to raid and take buildings down, they melt to other strong melee units and ranged units, but still they have practical usage, while the etk doesn’t.
It’s an easy calculation to make. Take the total food collected over a game, subtract the amount you get from berries sheep and boar, divide by the amount of food provided by farms, and you get your total number of farms made over the average game. Total savings comes out to be something like 1000 wood, compared to 30000 spent typically, or about 3%. The bonus is strongest in the late feudal and early castle, where it’s almost as powerful as the Celt wood bonus.
This is demonstrated statistically. Teutons win games in the midgame and lose early and late. If it truly were as powerful an eco bonus as people claim, then you would expect to see constantly rising win rates over time, not a rise and fall.
That is…the whole idea, yes. If that weren’t the idea, then what’s the point of giving them free Herbal Medicine and enhanced garrison space in towers? It would of course be backed up by halbs, skirms, knights, siege, or monks, depending what else the situation would call for. This isn’t about making a hardcore tower push, it’s about having the option available at any time to fortify and switch from a soft target to a hard one, give yourself time to reinforce your position, and reengage the assault when possible. Knowing when and how to do so would be a big part of what would make the civ fun and interesting, as opposed to their current status, where they’re basically the most vanilla civ you can imagine.
If you want proof that this can work, TheViper did it a few weeks back with just villagers and it worked well enough it surprised him. Allowing TK’s to do so as well would give incentive to always include a few of them with your attack, thus giving them an actual reason to exist and not just be used as a mediocre champion that can be made in an emergency at a castle to kill rams.
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What if TK’s provided double support when Garrisoned for Buildings (Crenellations) and Rams/ Siege Towers (more speed to those)?
I would say they need more Health and Attack as well because Elephants are more common now and somehow faster than TK’s. Or give them Infantry Armor to take less damage from HC’s, Cataphracts, etc. and some maybe Letis Armor because that Unit seems designed as a TK counter, which is niche role to fill.
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Teutons farms are obviously not as good as eg spanish trade, but still noticeable useful in lategame. I had a few games that were won because on of my teamates or I had teutons, the map ran out of wood and we could convert it into food more efficiently than the other team. Also 1000 wood / 24 wood per farm = 41.66 farms. In a real game you make a bit more farms than that my friend. It’s not really comparable to the celt wood bonus, because you only save up res if you make many farms, while the celt wood bonus allows you to freely invest the extra wood in whatever you want.
Teut don’t win games in the midgame (castle age), thats were they’re one of the worst, since their slower knights can be outmicroed so well and on top of that they lack decent arbs, so comitting for xbows in castle age makes close to no sence. Either you gain a good advantage in feudal or you will fall off quite heavily after the first minutes in castle age.
You answered your question by yourself. Adding free herebral medicine for teut was a completly pointless change. In castle age teut should always play something like kt + skirms, probly with fwd siege and a few monks to heal. You cant afford to make a castle in castle age and produce an expensive unit as slow as mangonel, that literally is useless to force fights or raid, a unit that melts vs archer fires, they even need additional upgrades and all that just to build a few fwd towers? This is so far from viable as it can just be. Even if you make all this happen and somehow get this to work (which obviously never, never should) it would still be no fun for both, the player and his opponent. Like who enjoys to play such a slow combo? Who enjoys to play vs full towers all game long?
One last thing: never reference to “Viper can make this work”. Viper can literally make anything work in this game, he won games with TK siegetower, ballista eles, ele archers etc. vs random 2ks on voobly he can play everything he likes to and it will always work. Even vs top players he can get ballista eles to work, all in the name of a masterpiece for his viewers. Viper is just one step above everyone.
If TKs should be playable then they would just need the speed of a champ (more or less), even then they probly would be too expensive in 1v1s and partly viable in TGs. For 1v1 lowering their gold cost to like 30 gold would probly be necessary as well.
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This is easily proven wrong. https://aoestats.io/civ/Teutons
As you can see, teutons lose in the earlygame, win in the midgame, and lose in the lategame.
Me? I wouldn’t suggest it otherwise.
The point wasn’t ‘viper can make this work’, it was ‘viper was surprised at how well this worked’. The entire civ is focused around towers and yet we never actually see teuton towers. That’s ridiculous, any anything we can do to make them more viable is a good thing. He clearly found it worked, they just need a little push in the right direction.
The fact you see free Herbal Medicine as a waste rather than an opportunity is the cherry on top. Why can’t you see the way this civ is CLEARLY leaned? Virtually EVERY PART OF THE CIV is based around it, and yet you insist that
TK’s just need to be turned into overpowered super cheap champions.
That is without a doubt the lamest way to change TK’s I can possibly imagine. Might as well just remove them from the game entirely. Give Champions +5 melee armor, call it a day.
Oh wait, a civ already did that.
So just delete Teutons entirely, we have Bulgarians.
My freaking goodness.
Then why didn’t they add it already?
To be fair those are 2 handed swordsmen. There are tons of melee matchup they can’t win that pose no problem to TK.
That statistic isn’t proving anything, you are trying to interpret stuff into data, which is not there. First of all 30-45 min mark which is simply not there is early imp, not midgame. I can very well tell you from my game experience, that teutons have huge problems in castle age facing xbows/CA. The point you can turn it around (if you didnt die) is early imp, when you get +4 chevas.
Yeah nice then you are probly one of very few, that don’t get that everyone is complaining about their slowness and you want to increase this further.
10 vills teut trush is a not so uncommon strategy as teuton flank or in 1v1, it’s all in, but it’s one of the best strats you can do as flank, you simply try to finish the game early on.
The fact that you hype up herebral medicine so har, show that you probly have never played a decent competite game and can’t understand how useless this is.
Yeah 85 food, 30 gold is super cheap infantry unit, sure. I’s totally comparable to a 45 food and 20 gold champ, produceable in barracks. Obviously it’s even better to compare that to a civ with free militia line ups, just go ahead.
I think at this point it’s senceless to argue further, you are as convince by TKs building teut towers as RicoJay about trade being useless on BF.
Cheers.
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This is easily proven wrong. https://aoestats.io/civ/Teutons
As you can see, teutons lose in the earlygame, win in the midgame, and lose in the lategame.
https://aoestats.io/civ/Teutons?elo=2000%2B
Please filter accordingly. At 2k+ picture looks quite different. Its actually interesting that for 1750-2k it looks totally different AGAIN. Guess it showcases how 2k+ players are better able to abuse a xbow/CA ball in early/mid castle age. Just being able to punish players trying to just defend and survive more.
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Depending on the strenght of the ram garrison buff, it could prove to be quite powerful.
Which speaks a lot when people bring up their ELO as an argument.
Even the most pro guy in the world doesn’t know the game THAT well because they all mostly stick to a very strict meta.
If they really do, how come they found all these new strats then? People wouldn’t have found stuff like Koreans towers being secretely OP, and no one would be m@a rushing right now.
I don’t want to be rude, but… Why are we still discussing the tower building idea? The post was about increasing the TK speed. Not about them being able to build stuff. Not even about possibile buff to TK.
I wouldn’t say this, but recently, other toppic was split due to a large part of the commentaries being way off topic.
I think we should respect rhe original idea of the toppic. If you feel so, you can create one yourself with your suggestions, but I think is senseless to keep arguing something that doesn’t belong here neither was accepted by most of people
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