I’m not ‘hyping up’ herbal medicine, I’m saying they’re one of the only civs that actually has a chance to practically use it whatsoever.
It’s an incredibly limited tech, because most units die before getting a chance to heal, and most of the time you don’t want to waste population sitting in a tower doing nothing but healing.
Teutons are unique in that they don’t have either problem. They have tanky infantry that can shoot arrows out of towers. They’re probably the best candidate in the game to actually use that bonus.
I’m not sure how you can seriously claim I’m the one being stubborn here. You want to completely invalidate the identity of a unit AND make it cheap enough to be overpowered, thereby guaranteeing its armor will get reduced and thereby invalidate its identity even further. Compared to that, my changes are comparatively tiny.
It is pretty interesting how that evolves. The crucial statistic there, however, is that for all of them it steadily drops in the lategame, proving that their farm bonus is not a lategame bonus, as others were claiming.
Because, quite frankly, the original idea wasn’t that great. As explained earlier in this very post!
Yes but how much time it took them to discover that?
My point is, if even fking Viper “finds out new stuff” and that Teutons/TK are not as undepowered as they seem, should I just quietly agree to guys that are much worse than him and know much less than him about the game just because they flash 16+ 17+ or 18+ elo and say that TK/Teutons are completely useless?
How on earth can you think that a slight dip at the 1+ h mark proves that teut farm bonus is irrelevant for lategame? The reason for it being slightly less than 50% is simply the bad trashwar options for teuts in 1v1s as simple as that.
Where did Viper find out TKs are suddenly viable und underpowerd if he continously says he hates teutons because they are slow, what they obviously are?
If you change balance or add new civs = new strats can happen. Obviously korean towers become broken, if they already were decent due to the extra LOS for vills and faster stone gathering and you even add +33% and can pretty much spawn towers somewhere. That argument is as random as it can be.
How often do you see teutons being picked? In 1v1s even on closed maps there are like 10 civs better than teut. In TG it’s the same. Before you go ahead denying a reasonable opinion of a 18+/19+ voobly player, rather share your ELO first.
A slight dip? They go from being substantially over 50% winrate to a constant drop to below 50%. That’s strongly indicative of where their bonuses and strengths lie. And the true strength of an eco bonus is a curve BEFORE the winrate curve, since it takes time for an eco bonus to spread to other parts of the game.
His game had nothing to do with TK’s, because TK’s can’t build towers right now. I’m SUGGESTING they be able to build towers, because Teutons have many tower bonuses, and because when they USE those tower bonuses, they do surprisingly well, even to the best players in the game.
By allowing them to build towers it creates SYNERGY where the currently is none, creates an actual reason to make TK’s, and gives the civ that actually makes them distinctive, rather than being the slowest and most boring civ in the game.
Right now, Teutons live and die entirely on their farm bonus, and basically ignore 90% of their other bonuses. Giving TK’s extra speed wouldn’t change that, it would just make them build TK’s instead of Champions and ultimately change nothing.
By instead giving them a distinctive and unique bonus, we can change the civ from vanilla and boring, to unique and distinctive.
Regardless of power levels, that should be the goal for EVERY civ.
That doesn’t mean you can’t do a good strategy with them, or that the only absolute way of making them useful is by buffing speed.
The only true way to test if a strong buff will change something is to test it ingame. Speculations about it’s effectiveness have some importance, but aren’t absolute.
Elo is not an argument, an argument is an argument. I’m not going to start an ELO kindergarden war with you.
As said nothing wrong with that, I dont want to imply anything about anyones character. Probly even the vast majority of AOE players only play campaigns/single player, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, no need to feel offended at all. It’s just if you have an actual MP rating on HD/voobly/DE, whatever it’s not a big deal to just openly talk about it, even if you have less or far more ELO, it’s not a big deal, but in certain ways in can make some views about certain units, playstyles more understandable. If you wish to know my ELO whatever, its always just my name with an underscore inbetween teutonic_tanks. (note that I mostly play TGs and i only have like 6-7 games on HD, i played most games on voobly)
Well, in the end we all want TKs to be better than they are.
And it is s bit pointless to discuss it further without knowing that the devs are reading and considering the suggestions, assuming that they aren’t extremely overburdened with other difficult matters.
Technically they know what happens there. It’s (maybe) how the new vietnamese bonus and mongols SL got in the game. Even if they also can perfectly ignore it if they disagree (I guess) since the +10% bonus pop for goths that literally everyone wanted hasn’t been implemented, and no one proposed the infantry discount to apply in Dark age.
I get the argument that TK’s aren’t as strong as their stats indicate. And yes their slow speed makes them vulnerable to hit and run tactics by just about any ranged unit in situations where the enemy can retreat. However, making their speed equal to Champions will make them really OP. People forget that a FU Elite TK easily kills a Paladin and costs a lot less gold.
Try running away when you have a horde of 100 TK’s coming into your base escorted by siege and maybe some hand cannons destroying everything in their path. Sure you can retreat your units but they’ll destroy everything. Like a slow tsunami… And on defense, Crenellations means Teutons can just garrison to deal with hit and run tactics.
All in all they aren’t the best UU but to suggest they need a buff… Nah.
Have you ever seen a real competitve game where someone went for 100 TKs? I haven’t seen a single one or experienced a single one, it just takes way too long and is way too slow to get to it. Even if they would be as fast as champs, they still need castles, a food eco like if you’re going elephants, expensive upgrades. And even if they’re as fast as champs you can hit and run them with Arbs, or even better CA or HC. Champs lose vs arbs, HCs, CAs and so will TKs. A FU TK might kill a paladin, but a paladin can simply avoid that fight. There is no need whatsoever to fight TKs, just outrun them and raid the economy and thats it. Why should you ever go for an expensive gold unit, if you have access to halbs, which are way quicker (they are even quicker than champs as well), dont cost gold, dont cost castles, dont cost many res. Even cost wise TKs arent the most efficient counter vs palas, they cost 125 res vs the 135 res of a paladin.
Cernellation extra arrows for infantry is also quite useless. If you are being pushed with trebs, it doesnt help. If you are pushed with mass arbs + rams, you obviously dont garrison but fight. If you try to hit the arbs while the rams approach, he can simply stand behind the rams (the rams soak the fire then, units standing infront taking tower/castle fire is a common mechanic) or garrison the arbs inside. The only use for the UT is the extra +3 range for the castle.
TKs are currently the TOP3 worst/unplayable UUs in the game, together with ballista eles and ele archers (hard to say which one is the overall worst, i probly would go for ballista eles, then TKs, then ele arch).
I’ve faced hordes of TK’s and it’s nasty when they arrive. Like I said a slow tsunami you can’t stop. Raiding economy is obviously a good strategy but Teutons are very strong on defense and in team games they can overwhelm if they survive to Imperial and build an army of TK’s, HC’s, Onagers and Rams. By the time they are in your base you can’t afford to hit and run while they smash everything. In field battles quick units own but in close quarters it’s a different story. When they are in your base you have to engage them in melee and they dominate.
Elite TK’s wreck Paladins. Food in the late game is rarely ever a limiting resource but gold is. Elite TK’s cost 40 gold to Paladin’s 75 not to mention upgrades to get Paladins cost a lot more than those for Elite TK’s. Elite TK’s also train much faster which makes up for needing Castles. Honestly it’s not a contest.
People who complain about TK’s probably can’t use them effectively because it’s not their style of play. Believe me in team games they can be formidable. To call them the weakest UU is ridiculous. Midtier maybe. I can think of lots of worse UU’s.
Well, i would propose 2 buffs in order to make towers and castles more useful for them.
First, a healing bonus while garrisoned for all units, that stacks with herbal medicine.
Second, a bonus for tower building(speed? Cost?) upon reaching castle/imperial… if its too much… Maybe free treadmill crane? Or maybe free stonemining upgrades?
These bonuses could replace free murderholes and free herbal medicine if needed.
The idea is using towers in a similar way than bulgarian kreposts to make slow pushes.
It’s not at all comparable to a slow tsunami, because a slow tsunami kills actually something, because they simply don’t arrive or rather should never arrive. On open maps the flank you will nearly always have someone with arbs and someone with kt line. TKs just melt hard vs arbs/CAs. Even if teut survive until imp, they still need to spend so many res on SO, halb, TKs, most likely even make a unit switch, which they should never survive vs a decent arb civ.
Gold should never be a limiting res in TGs, if you play correctly you can constantly flood paladins without making a single lightcav. Palas don’t cost a lot more if you take everything into cosideration: you only need stables and not castles. You can start producing kts in castle age and play them in castle age. You have a very smooth transition as paladin player through the whole game (scouts -> kt -> pala). TKs should simply never wreck palas, because palas can decide to take which fights. If you have palas alone vs TKs you’re not gonna be that dumb to fight them straight up, you just go raid. If you are playing a normal TG and have arbs and palas, then the arb playr simply snipes the TKs one by one.
If you’re talking about 1v1s, the pala player will again go for the raiding and not for the fight. But honestly, there should never be a pala vs TK matchup in 1v1s, both units are bad in 1v1.
Ppl who call TKs mid teir have probly never met decent opponents, who know how to micro arbs/CA/HCs/SO, literally everything with ranged, thats not a mame or ETA hardcounters them.
If i’m producing a unit, i’m producing it to fight, not to garrison. There is no need to create another prepatched koreans (they had +33% faster build fortifications). Just make TKs faster, maybe slightly cheaper goldwise (from 40 to 30 gold) to make them at least a bit more viable in 1v1s and give the kt line something to compensate for the lack of husbandry (eg. +1 melee armor)
Again… You can avoid fights unless the TK’s are in your base! Or surrounding the Trebs or BBC’s which are blowing your base to smithereens. Then you have to fight them or lose the game.
I can say that those that rate TK’s as the lowest tier UU probably haven’t faced Teuton players who know unit counters and bring mixed stacks. Your Arbs won’t have an easy time if the Teuton player brings a few Skirms and Onagers.
Trouble is, at that point, why bother with the TK’s? Just bring in some Halbs instead and you’ll be set at far lower cost. If you’ve got a deathball of Siege Rams + BBC + Halbs you’re almost unstoppable anyway.
And you can get there faster if you’re not wasting gold on units whose only purpose is standing around your siege looking cool. Not to mention, halbs you can afford to lose to a bad onager shot, but losing TK’s can really hurt.
This is why TK’s need something to do when the enemy is avoiding engaging them directly. If they could, say, build walls and towers, then the enemy would be forced to try to stop them before your position becomes fortified, in a similar manner to a castle drop, except TK’s are much harder to shut down than villagers.
Wrong. Attempting to fight arbs with ETKs is suicide. What you do instead is garrison your ETK’s in your tower, micro the tower to shoot the arbs until the rams get close, ungarrison the tower, instantly kill the ram with 10 ETK’s, then garrison and heal up any damage that was dealt while continuing to kill the Arbs while they helplessly shoot your tower.
Of course, this strategy isn’t possible if the enemy is able to easily shut down building the tower in the first place, but guess what! An ETK would be much more likely to survive building the tower in the first place!
if TK’s are in my base (which tey never should be, because they’re too slow) i could simply move my vills and be fine. If they surround trebs/BBC i can either snipe them with my own BBC, treb them down or simply snipe them with paladins. TKs aren’t as good at protecting siege as halbs, cavalry can simply outrun them and snipe the siege.
I rate TKs that low, because i know very well, that getting to the dream composition is quite impossible in normal game. The thing you don’t see is that arbs are an early imp unit, while TKs arent. If you reach imp and you didnt completly throw away all your army, you can simply get arb tech, chemistry and bracer, rater cheap techs (1.5k res together ruffly). If you go for TKs, you will need to unitswitch, means start reteching all blacksmith upgrades, since you cant play TKs in castle age. You will also have 0 TKs from castle age, you will still need to produce your units, while the arb player just needs to upgrade the xbows. Getting elite TK alone costs you 1.8k res, thats already more than teching arbs. But you still need blacksmith upgrades, produce the expensive units AND on top of that you need to tech into skirms and onager, skirms without bracer (aka rather bad vs arbs) and onagers, which can either be sniped with cavalry or BBC or outmicroed with arbs. An other problem with onagers is, that they rely on the enemy making a mistake, which is generally a bad plan. All this teching and investing into upgrades gives your opponent time to either raid you down, treb your production down or get to an ideal composition , that counters TK SO play (arb BBC light cavs, SO arbs etc.)
Can you say whats ruffly the ELO of your opponents/yourself, so we can ruffly see at which ELO ranges a TK play is working? Because at like 19+ voobly, 2k2+ DE TG it isnt.