Indian camels are too strong (suggestion: remove their pierce armor bonus)

Basically the only thing Indians produced in the tournament were camels (even if they lack knight line) and they won… No siege, no trash units, nothing. So something is definitely wrong.

They have 3 unique camel bonus, more attack vs buildings (that is supposed to be neutralized by masonry but somehow it is considered bug so masonry is reduced to an almost useless tech in general as the bonus buildings isn’t cancelled and swarm of any unit with bigger than 12 attack destroy the TC), more pierce armor and the imperial unit.

The thing is that knights and cavalier are still able to be countered by halbs somehow

Increase movement speed of the spearman line

But the camels are faster than knights. The camels in general are a good unit don’t suffer from the monk malus and counter knights. But to render them not too strong they have low attack and low hp (lower cost) and suffer from archers more but indians camels don’t suffer from this. Also imp camel tech that actually kills paladins effectively costing less, being viable even vs halbs in a matchup…

Do Vietnamese have something like this? No, their imperial skirmish almost pales in comparison to the rattatan archer. The only reason you would want to go it is if you are out of resources.

Ah yes, lets remove their only usable late game power unit. A few weeks ago, you said Indians are weak and nobody picks them even.

This is arguably the least useful bonus in most games. And camels take 1 bonus from defensive buildings, so the Indian pierce bonus is supposed to negate this

They’re actually countered harder by halbs and monks because they kill them much slower than knights do

If cataphracts are considered weak to archers, then Imp camels aren’t any better than catas at this aspect. Yes, 10 more HP but catas are much better at killing archers especially with trample against stacking

what’s with this random comparison. Imp skirm is a trash unit and improves on almost all stats except HP and range and is cheaper than Halb and Hussar upgrade


I don’t remember if i said they were weak but i remember saying they weren’t picked which is true. Also we are specifically talking about the unit indian camels. It is like goths and huskarls, huskarls are very good but the civ overall lacked.

No because halbs do less damage to them and monks have 30 hp? They move faster which means they get to the monk faster and knights have higher convert rate than camels.

What does cataphracts that costs like 3x the resource to be useful and fully upgraded has to do anything here and also btw costs more than a knight to produce and requires a castle ?

It is a direct comparison between imperial units and the civ that has it.

Which tournament are we talking about, I’ve been away from aoe for a few weeks.

Heavy camels already kill paladins cost effectively. What did you think Imperial camel upgrade would do to the situation? Nothing? And halberdiers still are very cost-effective units against imperial camels, no idea why you are trying to make it not so. Camels are barely faster than knight-line. Also paladins are also viable against halbs if you are in equal numbers. But neither mounted unit is making the cost-effective move there.

Imperial skirmisher is a trash unit, camel is not. Stop making utterly bad comparisons. Of course you want to make imp skirms mostly when you are out of gold, they are a trash unit. That trash unit is just better than other civs skirm.



They do way better than paladins against halbs, when did i say they trade good?

Not really, no one can deny that the imp camel is the best camel but the imp skirmish is beaten by a normal elite skirmish with +2 Pierce.


The way better part is surely subjective but, does it matter if they do better?

Are you referring to lithuanian elite skirmisher? Cause the imperial skirmisher is still going to win. Did you even try it out or how you came up with this conclusion? Imperial skirmisher has already +1 pierce armor compared to elite skirmisher, so the lithuanians have only +1 more and on the other hand imperial skirmisher has +1 more attack. However, both units normal ranged attack will be negated by each others pierce armor so it doesn’t actually matter at all, what matters is imperial skirmisher has 5 attack bonus against archers (which the skirmisher also are) while elite skirmisher only has +4. So Imperial skirms win.

So when and where does any elite skirmisher beat imperial ones, aside from maybe aztecs who have +1 range?


I don’t think the pierce armour makes too much of a difference until there’s a big mass of units that can take down tcs etc. Maybe for taking fights under towers.

I think some of the casters (assuming you’re talking about boa2) mentioned that team game meta is very different to 1v1 meta, in that people mostly go for gold units over thrash, because of the variety of gold units one team can produce will probably kill thrash of another team, knights vs skirm with crossbow to vs pikes etc.

Indian Camels are balanced, they have no Knights or Battle Elephants, so they need the + Pierce Armour to compensate, and even then they are not as good as Paladins for the same job.

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Then by that logic imp camels are balanced, because according to you Indians are a bad civ so them having a good unit doesn’t make it OP. Not that I agree with. Indians are obviously good as a civ, and camels are still camels, Indian or not

Ah classic trap. Halbs do 6 less damage, clearly better than knights EXCEPT you’re forgetting the fact that an imperial camel needs 6 hits to kill a FU Halb, so the halb gets 4 hits on the camel before dying leaving the imp camel with only 28HP. A Paladin on other hand kills the halb in 4 hits and only gets hit two times leaving with 106HP, it’s a ridiculous difference.

do we have source on this, afaik there’s no such thing as conversion weakness, its only resistance for scouts and eagles. Imp camels need 3 hits to kill a monk (also camels attack slightly slower), Paladin needs 2 so its evened out with the speed, camels can run away from monks better, I’ll give you that

You don’t even understand how bonus damage works. The Lith extra pierce for skirms makes no difference in skirm vs skirm, Bonus damage neglects shown armor and is only negated by bonus armor (like halb vs cata or HC vs condotierro). So imp skirms with their 5 bonus (compared to Eskirm’s 4) and especially with Vietnamese HP bonus is objectively the best skirm out there


Imperial camels have been nerfed several times. I am more oriented to say that Indians need a buff for 1v1 instead of a nerf. Indian camels are not knights, they are still bad vs archers and eagles. So Indians have a good matchup only vs cavalry. In team games this often happens, since there is at least a cavalry civ.

Indians are fine now imo, top pick in TGs, good eco, strong vs cavalry, weak vs archers and eagles.

If you want to nerf Indians again, you cannot touch the armor bonus. Maybe a nerf to the stats of imperial camels may work, but in that case you should buff Indians somewhere else, like giving back arbalest or similar.


HA! I forgot this from my own post. So even the aztecs elite skirms won’t be fairing good on this one. Should not be making posts in the middle of the night.

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they literally just got 2 buffs as is, they should be fine.

i don’t see any reason Indians need nerfs, but that’s just me.


This is not true. Indians have FU Hussar and BBC to counter Siege, FU Skirmisher and Elephant Archer to counter Ranged units, and Shatagini HC to counter Infantry.
Indians have literally an answer to everything.

I was thinking more on castle age, vs eagles and archers they are definitely worse than other civs. But you are right. I would add that, with one of the best eco in the game, you can support your FU CAs.


Not at all, in Castle Age, Longswords with Supplies beat Eagle Warriors, and you also have Cav Archers and Crossbowmen.

Castle Age Eagles are not hard to beat, only Imp Age Elite Eagle Warriors with their UTs become an issue.
And even then, Indians haveChamps with Supplies, which still beat Eagles even without Platemail.

What on earth… If a civ with a very good eco bonus has according to you “answers to everything”, then why are we not seeing it ever picked in high level 1v1 arabia?

Also good luck playing against meso with indians. Sure you get champs, but wihtout platemail your champs even die to skirms quite fast.


Skirms + Shatagini HC = dead Mesos.

could be any number of reasons, but i think the lack of knights makes people view them as weaker. or it could be their non traditional playstyle.

Except Navy

Ya good luck protecting your base from eagles, with HC.