Indian cards and their questionable design / worth

Everyone knows, Indian Cards are more punishing than advantageous.
that is :

  • You dont get the same value from a similar Indian card that u get get for same card of other civ.
  • And the deck is full of tons and tons of trash cards. Every second card is unusable.
  • Previously some features were unique to some civs. Like Double cards/some team shipments etc.
  • Absense of NEW Mechanics

    After DE made every mechanic non-unique. India still havent got anything NEW. But Others got what Indian cards / ability

Age 1 Cards :

  • imageimage - 2 Tigers, 2 Lions

  • image - Explorer HP increase and enable tigers. SHouldnt this be a research ? Or make it a late game card and buff the card so it can compete as US general’s research. PRoviding HP + ability

  • image - Monastery Wagon & -50% Monastry research cost. there are 5 research in monastry mostly of cost around 500s.

Age 2 Cards :

  • Mango Groves Callable ONES vs Cherry Orchard Callable TWICE. (IK its a low priority card.)
    image VS image x2

  • image - Only 700C, BUT NO 600 Coin Why ?

  • USELESS CARDS :

  • British Raj :
    image - Converts Vill 100 Wood Cost to 100 Food cost.

  • Grazing :
    image - Cows/Camel/Elephants get neglegible gold/food/wood trickle.

  • Attonement :
    image - Age2 Card Enables Jat Lancers in Age3. Outlaw pop reduce.

Age 3 Cards

  • image -1000C for 6 Arsonist Merc? Meanwhile asians have ZERO upgrades for mercs.

  • Why every shipment costs something?

  • And all free army shipments are below average. (ONLY 1 musk Shiment, and few gurkhs and Zamburaq shipments)

  • Meanwhile there are civs that have free falcs and Iron Flails and what not, and a better SHIPMENT CURVE.

  • image - 2 Howdahs 250 FOOD
    image - 2 Siege Eles 350 FOOD
    image-2 MOHOUTS 350F , 3 MOHOUTS 1000F
    imageimage - 7 Urumis 700 FOOD, Team 4 Urumis 600 Food.

  • image - 0.75 Export Trickle in age 3 BUT increases every units cost +2% :slight_smile:

  • image - Card to reduce merc “CARD” costs. Doesnt Improve HP/ TrainingCost / pop nothing

  • Age4 Cards :

  • image - Enables Arsonist, Gives Rocket attack. But their stats are as good as grenedier.

  • image

  • 2 War Dows, 1500C. Meanwhile Ethiopian cost 500 Influence.and Merc upgrades. Ottoman Xebecs costs 1000Coin.

  • Why there are NO INF Tiger claws ?
    imageimageimage

  • image - Age4 2000C for 5 Jat Lancers and 7 Arsonist ? Worth ?

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I can answer some of your questions:

India’s a slow-starter civ. Naturally, the shipments will reflect that. Obviously, their unit cards are heavily weighted towards Age 4. That’s ok. You can still send resource cards early and just build the infantry you need. Nothing wrong with that.

The elephants fall into that category. Typically, the cards have a “value”: ~400 resources in Age 1, 600 in Age 2, 900 in Age 3, and 1600 in Age 4. If the production cost of the units the card sends is much higher than that, they add a cost to send the card. This is to balance the value of the shipment. Elephants have such huge production costs, they typically need this kind of fix.

Because you already have 2 INF minor tribe cards. Most civs get access to just one. The Chakrams are a better choice too, since they can do AoE whereas the Tiger Claws do the same thing as rajputs.

That said, you’ve discussed a lot of other cards that clearly do suck and need attention. Things like the trickle card and grazing have been brought up for ages. The pet/treasure hunter cards just aren’t very useful in today’s meta. India has a lot of options that you look at and they simply don’t offer as much value as they need to to be options players really want to choose. These definitely could use some rebalancing.

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Thanks for reading my essay xD. Im just irritated that the civ cards are deliberately designed to hold the civ back.

As for the values, Yes you are right each card has approx values. But in this case its wayy tooo inflated. 4 Iron Flails or Meteor hammers do a far better job than mohout. This might be a bad example but, the point being the cost still is not justified.

Why cant 2 Howdahs, 2 mohout be free ? Arent there similarly strong shipments in the game for free with almost every civ ? Why 2 falcs are free ?

Adding cost to 3 mahawat might be a little sensible. but paying for a 2 unit shipment is just underwehlming IMO.

Yeah , its just the civ is not updated. there are no new mechanics added to the civ since legacy.

My main issue are the 5 training cards, just ridicoulous.

Royal green jackets at least could affect any consulate army

Indian gunpowder and zamindars should have their effects swapped, keeping the 2 sepoys per shipment on zamindars.

About the explorer card, maybe the tiger effect could be a tech before white tigers and the HP boost can be added to Dukkha suffering

Other card which could be changed is native handcrafting (export from TPs). It could become “Native TPs grant export trickle and consulate armies are trained X% faster per TP”

Other thibg about mangos, they should be resendable in imperial age.

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Catalytic made great points, let me add that Indian shipments come with a villager, and to balance it Indians need more xp to send shipments, so you shouldn’t rely on them too much.
Other civs have useless cards too, however, what they don’t have is an age2 fort, age2 skirm+goon combo or a huge +15% gather rate aura.

My beef with India is why do the sowars take 2 pop? Compared to cossacks, they cost 10 more res, are faster and have +50% dps against light infantry, even if sowars’ pop got reduced to 1, cossacks would still be a better all around option.

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  • These points you mentioned are good to say on paper. But Doesnt hold much weight. That fort is a name sake fort, have worse stat than an outpost. Zams are Trash. Gurkhas have less range than skirms. the +15% gather rate aura is an AURA not a +10% Economic theory :slight_smile:

  • The extra vill with shipment is not a bonus, its a compensation.
    There are NO VILLAGER SHIPMENTS + Vills cost wood. Thats why the +1 Vill with each shipment.

  • And your 2 cards are already fixed, that is the trickle cards, regardless of the MU, so u play with essentially ~23 Card deck. Else forget about vill production, mostly.


Its the whole deck and card design and the mechancics in question than the stratergy etc.

There are only like 3 civs that get higher range skirms than india in age 2 … I dont think 19 range isnt much of a problem tbh

It covers your starting res and later your farms … its really good, especially early on

Same goes for european civs. You could even argue, that india is better of, since it doesnt need slots for villager cards and gets up to 25 free vills, when others only have like 3+5 vills. Ofc the tempo is different

I’ve always thought of it as a version of the medicine card


Maybe they could get trainspeed for vills (but then indias team medicine cards needs a change aswell)

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Also dont forget that india gets a vil with every shipment sent, so what you get also has that in mind

On the explorer card, all explorer cards have the same design.

Its mostly a niche bonus that allows some combat and a small bonus. Its alwways been very niche and you are never really using it outside of meme situations.

I dont really know why you are comparing to US general research though, the 2 indian monks gain 50% HP per age and ends up with about the same HP combined as the US general with the techs

They are also affected by elephant combat so they gain some other bonus stuff as well

Its a +10% and just around the wonder while others get the same in the whole map at age I. India has to wait at least until age II to get it.

Meanwhile, India has not refrigeration, coin cards or factories plus most useless consulate in lategame

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Who sends eco theory in age 1? If we look at civs without vill shipments (in supremacy) they always go for the trickles first…

Russia: wood trickle → age up → … → eco theory

Ports: feitoria → age up → … → eco theory

India: wood trickle+1vill → karnimata age up → …

So purely on those factors india is like 3 vills (+1 by sending card and ~20 vill*10%= +2) ahead of russia after the age up.
Russia gets 400w from the age up, karnimata gives you 200w 200f 100c, so it cancels out.
India gets the better age up, saves one shipment and one hc slot.

Idk, i’ve never had economic issues with india. But maybe thats just different between supremacy and treaty.

Age I pet cards as well as explorer,war chief and monk upgrade cards are meant to help collect treasures easier so if on a map with lots of good treasures they could be useful in that specific situation.

Holy Refuge can be good for outlaw play allowing you to have a Monastery up and ready to go once reaching Age II. Having cheaper techs from Monastery too is a solid bonus.

Attonement can be good on specific maps with good outlaws such as Hadjuk for example.

There are cards for all civs that are good in limited situations and because of that people don’t tend to use them much going with what is good all around instead. There are some cards that could use buffs and some that are fine even if not used much.

Lo único que me molesta es que sus monjes curen a 4 :mending_heart:/s y con la mejora del monasterio a 6. Podrían curar a 10 :heart:/s por lo menos

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@Catalytic3351

You are like 100 res off for age 2 and 3 given there exist 700 res shipment and 1k res shipment.

Karni mata’s bonus is an EXTRA bonus on top of what the age up already gives ( 200 food, wood and 100 coin in age 2)

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No, wonders work the other way around. The crates are the Extra to what the wonder offers.

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Not really given wonders also give global abilities such as cease fire. They aren’t the ‘default’ age up rewards in comparison to any civ, rather an extra.

They certainly do work for that purpose, but there’s a reason few people use them, especially in the competitive scene. 1) You need your explorer exploring, so treasure hunting becomes more of an exercise in quick smash and grabs. That’s time that could be spent finding your mines, hunts, and scouting for enemy rushes. 2) In competitive games, people snipe your treasures. If you take the risk on a tough treasure, your enemy might just come in, kill your explorer, and take your treasure, losing you both the treasure and the 100c ransom to get your explorer back. 3) There’s an opportunity cost to send that card. Sure it helps, but you could have sent a better card.

When you look at these cards through the lens of opportunity cost, you start to see why people see the explorer cards, almost universally, as weak. What works in vs. AI doesn’t work in competitive play. These cards need a little something extra.

There are only a handful of maps where you’d want to do this. Outlaws just aren’t very good units, especially if you’re talking about spending your gold on standard sepoys/gurkhas which are quite good. As for the techs, the summonable tigers aren’t much to write home about. They support the treasure hunting game that’s just not played much in competitive play. The heal tech is also lackluster. It takes the monks from 4 hp/s heals to 6 hp/s. You have to wait til age 3 to see a tech which helps with cavalry play, and it’s not exactly a “must have” tech. Sure, I get the building and the trickle that comes with it, but I don’t really need that building. Combining it with Atonement (the Indian theater card that enables the Jat Lancer) might help, especially if the goal is to support outlaw play.

It’s hard to just say the card is fine, but no one uses it. If you think about it, that’s the community telling you that it’s not fine, because no one uses it. They use better cards. If you want to offer real choice, the options to choose from must be powerful enough that you’d actually consider giving up some of those standard cards to take these options. They have to offer enough to compete, and right now, they just don’t do enough to help you win games.

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You forgot Jat Lancers. They cost a lot of resources (400 gold! and 4 population space!!!) but are very ineffective. You buy them to waste your population.

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My suggestion for Karni mata is to increase its efficiency by 10% during construction in the first two eras and by 15% during construction in the last two eras, and expand its influence range according to the construction era. This is relatively simple and can ensure a relative balance between the early and late stages

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18 Range in age2 and then a continuous range/stats disadvantage.

Thats a very short term view for a Wonder. It is good for a Fast stereotypical Indian rush but quickly comes to reality in Team/Long/Treaty games. Also there is no refridgeration/coin n factories asmentioned by @Ekdal1378

India has as Team one, that decreases only the Built time.

That healing as is only 1 unit at a time. and slower + healing right click is bugged.

It doesnt the Indian mercs are bad / no upgrade and coin income is not sustainable. Even after pop reductiojn they arent worth.