Trash units don’t win u game, otherwise everyone would be picking byz am I wrong? U need winning units every civ has them. Also trash is useless in team game and they lack better gold units.
I am not even talking about trash units in this post, its UU which being talked about.
Factually wrong. Imperial Camels is less expensive to upgrade than Paladin, and absolutely destroys Paladin. They are also faster, which means they raid better.
Like it or not, just because you do not know how to use Indians, does not mean they are not one of the strongest civs in the game.
They flat out neutralize Franks and Huns, for example.
LoL I am surprised too.
I mentioned trash because it went on top of other Indian strong units. And what is bad about Imp camels, HCA, BBC and Hand cannoneer?
UU =/= strong units, so the gold units I mentioned qualify too.
Honestly have you ever played a heavy shorefish map such as bedouins, Dry River, Rehydration vs Indians? There is barely any harder civ-map win possible.
Before complaining about the nerf just think about it: is it fair that the civ with cheaper villagers collects the fastest possible food source in the game faster? On top of that they have pierce armor for camels + imp camels on maps where you pretty much only play massive scouts/knigths with every other civs.
Honestly the nerf doesnt go far enough. Indians should completly lose this bonus, they’re good on shorefish heavy maps even without the bonus.
And if you now say heavy shorefish maps shouldnt exist, well those are extremly fast paced maps, with huge feudal and castle age fights and simply promote fun/very good entertainment to players + viewers, it’s sad that these cant be played because of silly indian civwins.
And in general about indians: they’re still one of best pkt civs in TGs and everything else than a bad civ in general.
Now, imagine that besides them having a great Food economy thanks to Vill discount and Fishermen bonii; some even say they should have Elephants.
Imagine a balance in which Indians could outspam everyone else with the Tankiest base unit in the game, while also having amazing Farm Boom, Fishermen eco lead, and Sultans tech to boost Gold.
Yeah I do agree previous bonus was too strong. But 10% is useless. I would have much appreciated they changed bonus to +20 fish carried. That would not make them OP on shore fish maps, makes them viable with less shore fish and reduced the strain of making mills. This is much better economic bonus.
I don’t care if they receive BE or not. I would rather improve the units they currently have instead of receiving more useless units.
Japs, mong, saracens all get FU HCA but u will never see them making them just becuase there are better units. If the best that Indians can provide is as generic or useless for other civs then I don’t know what else to say.
Indians don’t have arbalest, lacking infantry, no knight line, pathetic seige and avg docks. Only thing they do good is camel. Even heavy camel can kill paladin but for others civs its an option, for Indians its necessity. It is a replacement for knight line. Looking at some costs- camel cost 55f 60g, knights 60f 75g which is ~78% of resources. Camel to imp camel costs 1525f 960g, Knights to paladin costs 1600f 1050g which is ~94%. But think yourself-is imp camel even 80% of what paladin is especially when it is a UU for a civ?
Final thoughts-
Remove 10% faster fish to +20 fish carry capacity to make it more viable.
Give imp camel +1 melee and pierce armor to better match paladin upgrade.
Give shatghni +1 range to elephant archer too.
All these bonus will improve the viability of units and bonus and u have to pay in order to get its benefits and not for free.
It isn’t. Shore fish is the fastest way a villager can gather food, so a 10% increase is still quite a lot. Removing the carry capacity is quite a big hit in situation where villagers have to walk a lot but since there is the new dock drop-off mechanic it doesn’t matter that much. But your idea isn’t half bad either (but it would be a nerf overall, not a buff)
I guess the UU? And fire ships/scorpions in Imp. I don’t see other “useless” units for Indians.
Indian infantry is OK tbh, and their siege is good enough to do its job, and BBC is still a nice plus.
Mongols lack the last armor upgrade and are worse than FU generic.
That’s super wrong
So Mongols have the Mangudai, but beside that for Japanese and Saracen (and Indian) I don’t see another fast, hard hitting unit that has enough range and armour to be an effective raider (Mamelukes are so much more expensive and have such a tiny range HCA are more convenient to use)
You can go check the Indian’s changelog on the wiki and you will notice that the former Indian bonus of +1/+1 armour to camels has been nerfed to +0/+1. Furthermore, almost everything anti-cav has been buffed to deal more damage to camels than they previously did. Forgot the reason but it was a good one.
That’s the problem: locking the buff of the EA, an expensive unit, behind even more stuff to invest in, isn’t a good idea.
okay thats not true at all
It is. Imagine u have a shore fish and ur mill is 8 tiles away. U will never use that fish just cuz u don’t wanna mill that. But if u can carry more fish, it makes it viable now u don’t need to mill which will help u economically. Now having fish abundant map. 10% faster is still OP but +20 carry capacity will not be big as u will be making mills anyway. Suddenly u made a bonus viable in both cases.
I meant Battle elephants and war elephants. People trying to sway others from the focus of the post.
It’s true believe it or not. They have both have arbalest, saracens having bonus vs buildings. People avoid CA as they require lots of upgrades, unless they have something extra to provide.
Even I was in favor of that. But the change i suggested is connected to imperial camel upgrade and not given for free to castle ones. But looking at the patch notes, they are just giving armor to units for free nowadays lol
Even I agree. But I dont’t know how to buff them as they need it desperately for last 8 yrs. Maybe make elite ele archer spawn second archer making it “unique” unit and not second war wagon.
GUys plz stick to the focus of the post- fish bonus, imp camel and ele archer.
Imperial Camel Speed: 1.45
Paladin Speed: 1.35
More speed make sense though. They are meant to kill cavalry and chase them. If they are slow they might as well become halb lol
sure but how does that make them a better raider? their attack is much lower (also attack slower), HP and pierce is also lower (also take 1 bonus from buildings)
They are faster, so they are harder to catch, and they kill Villagers a lot faster.
No other civ would either so you’re not going to eb disadvantaged.
So it isn’t useless if you think it’s OP.
Is the bonus ALWAYS meant to be usable tho? If it was the Indian’s only eco bonus, then it would suck if it only was map dependant, but since Indian also have the cheaper villagers it doesn’t matter as much. Your idea might get in the game, but it will 100% be a nerf in most cases.
Here is an example of someone avoiding CA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=El0Jk5yo8kE Oops looks like he favoured HCA over arbs, and that it was a clever move.
Raiding potential? Archers with more attack, HP, speed and health?
If it’s the complaint about Imp camels being worse than palas, then why? I mean usually people don’t complain about imp camels being UP, and I don’t think their purpose is to completely replace palas.
Well, it’s more like they are giving armour to the units from the civ which theme is heavy armour.
Do you mean something like the Konnik, or having 2 archers on top of the ele, or giving a free archer whenever you build an EA?
OP in cases of abundant fish and useless where there are few fish. I suggested middle ground where it is useful and not OP.
It was meant as nerf but useful and not OP in shore fish map.
and cost and more counters.
I never said that. Just saying the cost of upgrading to imp camel doesn’t give u what pala give u even when it is UU.
2 archers sitting on ele archer shooting independently not like Kipchak who shoots 4 arrows in one go, just a wild idea.
U have to hit 4 times with imp camel to kill a vill not like pala who needs 3 with lot of pierce armor. If u wanna raid hussar is better choice that also takes 4 hits. That’s what I am saying imp camel is front line, give them +1 melee and pierce armor for better tanking.
anyone making this claim hasn’t watched enough aoe2.
trash has won plenty of games.
celts woodcutters are 10% better then other civs fully upgraded, and no one considers them useless.
slav farmers are 10% better then other civs adn no one considers them useless.
khmer farmers are less then 10% better then slav farmers and no one considers them useless.
i agree, any type of eco bonus even 10% that works trough the whole game is huge
thats why eco boost civs are strong (alomst all S and A tier civs have eco boost) even thoe they dont have best units