Italians Unique Units

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
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Hei Guys! this is a followup of my other thread about the state of the italians.

i personally think both genoese crossbows and condottiero could use some help, and i would like to propose some option for a change, as currently these units are either one-trick-pony, or with very badly priced upgrades

GENOXBOWS: the castle age one is decent i think, but pricy, and slower than average to create (18s vs 16s) thus harder to mass. Big Problem is their elitè upgrade which just sucks for that cost. i would also like to double down on their strenght to make them unique, looking at the rattan archers, which have a great PA, but make Geno the MA counterpart. SO:

Genoese Crossbows get +1 MA or -2s TT
Elitè Geno Cross get +2 MA (total of 3 or 4 depending on the base unit but 3 would also be ok) and is a bit cheaper (like 900/650 instead of 900/750) and faster (45/50s instead of the current 60)

All in all, Geno would feel unique in the MA department, without changing the concept of the unit. it would just further emphasizes that theyr counter cavalry but leave a big weakness for enemy archers. Comparing it to Rattan it would seem more or less fine

CONDOTTIERO: a weird unit with a very unique niche which i like, but the niche is so slim that the unit seems very little reason to be used for italians. other civs might have better reason to use that i guess. it has the bonus of not needing upgrades, but aside from very early IMP, its stats are just bad compared to a generic champion which is both stronger and cheaper against anithing aside gunpowder. it is also one of the few infantry units without a bonus vs eagles.

-Condos get +4 bonus vs eagles. making them worse than Militia-Line but at least decent
-Condos get +1 PA, making them a tankier variant of the champions but much weaker in damage. would also further help agains handcannons, since they still take 17 since they have 0 PA base.
-Another otpion for an upgrade could be “Condottieri are affected by chemistry”. This would sinergize with italians UNI bonus, make sense with their gunpowder theme, and allow them to stay a bit more relevant in post-imp, while having to research a tech for it, and +1 attack would not break anithing i think

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As long as Chemistry lights their swords on fire I’m fine with it

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Wanna point out the trivia part of this page that said condos were actually mounted

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The Condos are supposed to be use by Infantry civis or in replace of the Champion for other civs as a team bonus, not for the Italians which have great gunpowder units
If you want to buff them you need to think in all the consequences with the rest of the civs
It will mean Malian and Burmese Condos OP for example
Agree that devs need to address the bonus against eagles for Condos, Kamayuks and Dismounted Konnik
About the GC I would propose to buff the Elite unite a bit, you get too few for what it cost

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yeah i know it feels strange, but it’s the only way i found that makes a little sense thematically and that allow them to scale a bit in power without buffing them for free lol

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well condos were actually much more similar then heroes then mere soldiers. there were only a handful of those and they were leaders or armies, but yeah, AOE is not well know for its historical accuracy i guess

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why malian and burmese condos would be OP? they were just a different variant of champions. Condo is a pretty underwelming unit as is, and why the italians should not be able to benefit from their own bonus? it’s literally their bonus… i do not think that buffing condos suddenly leads italians to “infantry civ” territory, cause even if buffed by chemistry, condos would have 2 less attack and 1 less PA than champions, while costing 10 food and 15 gold more, or even if +1PA condos would just be tankier against arrows, but that hardly makes them huskarls.

Malians condos, supposed the +1PA buff, would end with the same PA as champions. only difference is 10 HP more, but they would still have 3 less attack. if it wasnt clear, my proposal was either the +1PA or the chemistry thing, not necessarily both at once

i mean, if handcannoneers were actually better then arbalester against infantry i would agree, but arbalest are better almost ever, this supposing the opponent is going heavy into champions, which is already not that common, making handcannons even more niche, thus making their counter even more and more niche

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I love this post overall.
Sounds very reasonable unlike these common suggestion who want to increase the range of the Elite Genoese or some other ideas that basically murder the unit conceptually.

Condottiero suggestions are good as well, they address the overall viability of the unit beyond its “purpose” of being an Anti-Gun unit. This unit is one of my favorite, very unique, perhaps the only unique unit in the game which is automatically an Elite, and that’s its beautiful edge.
The only problem I see with PA is Team Games, Goths, Malians, Burmese etc… It’s a little too abusive potentially, so perhaps just buff Pavise, making it give Foot Archers +1/+1 and Condos +1/+2.

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You still have the thing where Pavise doesn’t even affect them until Imp.

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Condos also have more HP, more armor and are faster, but more importantly you can start spamming them without any line upgrades. The downside is that they require a lot of generic upgrades, ten to be precise, but for a powerspike, getting even some of them prioritizing armor and squires can be enough. The other main problem is that it’s a predictable strategy.

As for the eagle bonus, I completely agree, but I think that even a +2 may be enough. Right now, a fully upgraded condo can barely beat an El Dorado eagle, by literally 1 hit. A +2 bonus damage would be enough to make a decent counter, a +1 vs spears wouldn’t be bad either.

GC in my opinion are in a better spot. The training te was its main problem, and it was considerably buffed. It also cost less gold than an arb, so it can be situationally good. It’s main problem is that the elite upgrade is quite expensive for what it gives, but the most obvious and simple solution to that is to simply reduce the cost of the upgrade.

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I think for GC the question is actually what the Unit is designed for.
Shall it be a standalone unit that competes with the standard archer line or shall it be a mixed in unit? If it shall be the latter, which i assume as most of it’s stats are comparable to the standard archer line, why do they eg have less range than regular archers?
Wouldn’t it be better if then they had basically the same stats but with that bonus against cavalry? The main difference could be in the ressource ratio: If designed this way GC could just cost 70 G to reflect their utility against cavalry. (GC also could have a small bonus against eagles but that’s optional).

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thanks! i’m glad my suggestions are not trash at least lol

i think it would be strange to differentiate the buff from pavise, even if it could be done no problem. would just feel strange to read such a diversification for a unit that does not even exist in castle age. i personally think +1 PA would not break a think, as 1/1 armor is not something broken to begin with, it’s the same as THS and champion in Imperial. of course 80 HP is better than 65 or 70 but there is still a huge difference in attack. overall, condo would became the tankier variant, while champion would remain the aggressive one

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infact i sayd there is a early imp power spike potentially but that is very niche, limited in time, and drop off quickly, thus the proposal to buff condo via chemistry. a simple way to make them stay relevant in full-Imp trough a tech without impact their early imp

for geno, i agree the base one is decent, altough the time is higher than average UU archer and they cost more wood than xbows, which is worse in castle age. but the real problem is elitè upgrade, which is just insulting atm

it basically gives you a scale bonus damage (which is pretty much a given to stay relevant against cav in imp) and 5 HP, for more resources total than a plumed, which also does not cost gold. Chu-ko-nu upgrade is considered quite meh, but cost way way less.

i would prefere to keep the cost fairly high but buff the unit considerably for the cost, to make it stand out a little,and i think +2 MA, alongside reduction in time and slight reduction in cost of upgrade, would do the trick. it would be the archer with the best stat in melee, which would ephasize the fact that you need ranged tools to deal with them, and i like them to have a clear design and a unique role

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That’s true.
But otherwise it’s not balancable, unlike Champion this unit is super viable due to its speed, I don’t think you can compare between these two units this easily. It’s a little more complicated than that.
Besides that Italians should definitely have their Unique Techs switch, Silk Road deserves a lower cost (badly!) 500f 250g is way too much. And this way it will allow people to slowly create Trade Carts in Castle Age.

I remind you Infantry Units have the best Armor Type in the game, especially Condo’s with their unique bonus. These type of units have little to no comeback mechanism when facing them, naturally, after all they’re infirior to Cavalry or Archers, but still, there is no efficient way to deal with them but outmassing them with another unit. So we should be very careful when buffing Infantry Units. Especially if we Huskarlize them a little.

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well, if it’s that problematic, i can agree to that, then we should just give condo a bit more offensive power instead? the chemistry think feels appropriate to me, or theiy could just get +1 attack and call it a day?

even if i think PA would not be a problem considering that they are slower than eagles in imperial, while having even much less PA and a similar cost (85 total vs 70 total, but more gold ratio). Also champions yes they are slower and thus less impactful, but that’s a problem that should fixed for militia (militia should have 1.0 base speed imho or at least 0.96 like archers but that’s beside the point of the thread), but they still have much higher utility against buildings and would still be way better against eagles, and would still have 3 more attack.

all in all, if their PA is upped to 1, you would trade attack and damage (both base and bonuses) for speed and 10 HP, and the protection against gunpowder, which in niche at best being underutilized in any case. for a worse cost (65 vs 85, with more gold cost). so it would feel perfectly fine for me. given the chance, i would probably still train champions over condos in any situation outside gunpowder and massed archer, but the champions would still have a place due to sheer cheapness and more damage.

yet again, if it’s too much to up the defence a bit, then up the offence a bit and make that offensive difference between THC or champion a bit less, with more bonus damage (vs eagles) and +1 attack

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Champion’s viability is a whole different legitimate subject.

I’m cool with the +1 attack bonus (no chemistry).

I’d personally reprice them, from 50f 35g to 40f 40g. Gold efficiency matters less when you go for this unit, since you already aim to finish the game, you have fully upgraded Hussars otherwise, or fully upgraded Champs for the long run investment, Condos are powerspike and should handled this way.
Italians like to Fast(ish) Imp many times, they usually dont go for big farming eco, it helps heavily. And lastly once you increase their gold cost you have more legitimacy to increase their stats. (+1 damage and +1 pierce armor as part of the Imperial Pavise)

(I’d personally go even further and price them 35f 45g, gold heavy economy is also historically correct for Italians, just like their trading bonus)

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+1 against all units isn’t a small buff, it’s big, especially if the enemy has to respond with castle age units. It would be better to just give them some small situational bonus damage.

Consider that the condo is also a shared unit, so that +1 would be even bigger for civs like Burmese or Japanese and so on.

But they have an higher attack in castle age than xbows, and they cost less gold. Against cav civs, it’s simply the better choice, while xbow/arbs are the better choice against archer/infantry units.

You don’t have to see the GC as a better version than the xbow, but like a complementary unit. If you buff the elite stats, then you should nerf the bonus damage, and just mess things up…

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every castle age UU is better han then generic counterpart because you have to build a castle t even get them, which makes them much harder to get access to and mass. so i’ts nothing astonishing that they have better attack than xbows in castle, since almost any other archer UU has the same. theyr also have less range. overall, they have the niche of cavalry but are worse against anithing else. decent against infantry but worse against other archers. this is ok for the castle age variant, but the elitè is just a plain joke for that cost

the imperial variant emphasize the worse against archer part, is worse against infantry than the castle (no damage update or range upgrade) and is just as good as before against cavalry comparatively for the ages. thus my proposal to at least keep them good in melee with the MA and leave the archer weakness as is

for condos, the +1 would not be for free, would be behing the chemistry tech, so it would not impact the early imp power spike too much. anyway, i rarely see this abuse of condos in early imp anyway…

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if the reprice helps in make them stronger and less niche, more versatile and seen in actual play. then i’m all for it. maybe theyr could be 35/45 or even 30/50 and be more similar to eagles thank champions, being already quite fast

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Less likely to happen though, developers tend to prioritize gold efficiency over strategy or any bold design. Same goes for the pierce armor, it takes quite a courage to pull Italians away of their generic Arbalester state.