I never said they are unbeatabale, I said they have the best age2 in the game by far and wide.
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Ok sorry i read that and i need to answer that.
First, in what top 200 are you? Team or 1v1 Supremacy?
You cry about Sweden Economy, ok then we look now to the Brits.
I have the feeling you are conviniced that the Brits Economic is blanced, right?
You pay as Brits 135 Wood for a Manor House. As Sweden you also pay 135 Wood for a Torp. Thats Equal correct. Now we look what we get out of these 135 Wood. For the Brits you get a Villager, that can collect all Ressources everywere and profit from Card upgrades from the Homecity and Marketplace upgrades. Keep in mid that you can place your Manor House all over the place on the Map, they scout for you and when your enemy burn that down, nice for you, one Villager more you can use, when you build a new one.
So now we compare that with the Torp. First you need to place Torps on the mines when you want the full potential of the Boom. Ups yeah mines cant move and you have only 1-2 mines in your Base. So for your enemy is complet easy to counter that, he only deny you the mines on the map and then you have no Torps. Torps gather a lot worse than one Villager, only with the to upgrades cards they are better, you need two Cards for that, then you need a lot of wood to build Torps. I pay the same equal cost of a Manor House and get a lot worse gather rate on a Buildung that run out, on the other side you get a Villager that collect Ressources for ever on a mill. I get a building that i need to place on a specific place on the map, a place than you can contest as enemy. You cant contest a brit Manor Boom, when he want he can build alle Houses in his Base, gather all Ressources and push then out. A Sweden Player cant do that.
Comeback to these two cards, that i need too push my Eco. Thats two Cards more two cards. This two Cards can be two military Shipments for you or coin to Age up and two Falks in the third Age.
You are definitly not top 200, sorry for that. When you are top 200 you now that Sweden is easy to counter. I speak her not over the Hakkas they are Broken, thats correct. I the acutall Game Sweden is brooken because of Hakkas and not more.
I dont see any games from you but I say you didnt make pressure befor the 8 min mark, then you cry Sweden Eco is op, yeah sure when you make no pressure and he have time to build the Eco up, yeah then is of the strongest Eco in the Game, but not for ever. Torps run out, banks and Villager doesnt, you cry also over Brit, Japan, Dutch? I think no.
Learn to play against Sweden, make pressure early, contest the mines, burnt Torps. When you play in this Manor you will see Sweden is really week (except Hakkas now). Leather Canons are really expensiv and easy to kill. Caroliners are one of the worst age two musk. in the game and by far only in middle even in the Late Game.
hard to argue that one, facts are facts
Sweden has one of the worst Age 2 two Plays. Carolians are so weak in age two and leather Cannons are so squishy and expensive. Yeah when you let them boom and didnt contest the mines you have right. Then Sweden is really Strong. But this is your fault not the Civ balancing. You make no pressure. Your fault not a Balancing problem! You cant let boom Brits, Japan, Sweden, Dutch. When you do that you have a high chance to lose, because their eco is one of the Best.
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Yeah Sweden have the advanced arsenal for free, thats correct. But not in Age two. They can build the arsenal at the first time in age 3, except you go up with the logistican. That mean you have a advantage when you stay in Age two, because you have a advanced arsenal and sweden doesnt. That bonus (advanced arsenal for free) count not much because you need a lot of ressources two make the upgrades. When you are in this stage of the game you have normaly the better Eco as Russia than Sweden.
Wow the bias in your response is so palpable I can taste it through the screen.
Iâm top 200 in 1v1 Supremacy, of course. Oh and also in teams, but Iâm not talking about that right now.
Most if not all of your assumptions about me are totally incorrect and you projected them into your response to frame a severely fallacious argument.
Of course I pressure the Sweden right out of the gate - well before the 8 minute mark.
Of course I scout.
Of course I make non-stop units with some form of eco behind it.
Of course I micro my units against theirs, to the degree of being top 200.
If Sweden decides to stay in age 2, they get halbs out no later than 6:30.
If you invested in pikes or muskets to take out those torps, the sheer number of halbs will counter you - and when theyâre not chasing your units, theyâll siege everything down.
If you manage to pivot and counter the halbs, well now the torps eco starts kicking in and more and more torps keep going down - spiraling into an unmatched deathball for the time spent in-game.
Every top 200 player staying in age 2 exploits the halb start because itâs an EXCELLENT trade-off. It starts exceptionally aggressively and even if it gets countered will have served to buy plenty of time for all of the torps to go up.
But back to picking siege units early against Sweden - If their torps are pressured, itâs only a small matter of time before carrolean + leather cannons come to counter the early siege.
If you make non-siege units like light infantry to try and pick off their villagers and carroleans, well that gets hard-countered by the leather cannons. And caroleans do well enough at the start and are able to be massed enough to where the light infantry can be fended off easily enough, more than enough to buy time for the torps to keep dropping down. And this option provides noâŠwellâŠsiege.
The point is, the Swedish eco is what is overpowered. No matter how much you outplay someone of equal skill, they will always come out on top if youâre not playing another S Tier civ like Ports. And this is taking Hakkas out of the picture.
You seem to be fond of winning as Sweden and complaining when you lose as them. The reality is youâre probably the one at fault and not realizing how many mistakes you make. Sweden is extremely forgiving at the moment and anyone who says otherwise is probably a corporal or worse.
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Dude, no offense, but saying that halb start is just soo good every game doesnât make any sense to me.1 entire shipment and 1500 food for hand infantry pays off, if you can catch stuff in base.
But other than that, it slows sweden down, and that benefits most other civs against it. Also, Really, reminding us twice of you being in the top 200? And the way you describe a fight against sweden, it makes me wonder if that is correct. A namedrop would be helpful to confirm. You can have mine to, if you donât want to trade for free.
Sweden hast an eco that scales insanely well, if you let them. Halbs are not gonna chance the fact that your enemy is on the entire map, scouting torp vills and denying your boom, if they jnow what they are doing. You still have musks that are worse than your standard variety musketeer, until you get them heavily carded. I like the idea of getting an early arsenal for sweden, because it is one hell of an investment, but could buff our units in age 2. Maybe lock certain techs like the speed tech in age 3, but for the rest, lets try.
Last but not least, you are the one who sounds like they are unhappy with their winrate against sweden. Which I can understand with hakkas being in the picure, but without that, there are a lot of civs who can put early pressure on the opponent. So I donât really see why you are complaining so much here?
I agree that the halberdiers start are a very good deal. One halberdier costs 50f 70c, which is equivalent to 150f, assuming the same market upgrades (usually you upgrade hunting dogs long before placer mines, especially as Sweden). So 16 halberdiers cost the equivalent of 2400f, so you spend one church card to get a value of 900f. And these 16 veteran halberdiers are fortress age units with fortress age stats. Plus these units can come out quickly as you only need to wait for the card plus the research time once in colonial age. Most food can be gathered during the ageup time if you delay your torps booming.
I think the objective of halberdiers is to have a good value quickly, so you have the better army early and the opponent has to react to your army and defend against it, which make it much easier to torp boom behind it.
They are worse in a head to head battle, which you do not want to do as Swedes without cannons, fine.
Many players on this thread are saying that the problem was not the hakkapelits, it was the eco. So they think that nerfing the hakkapelits is not the right nerf and would rather keep the hakkapelits as is and nerf the eco instead.
I donât know about other, but I think the British eco is clearly one of the best.
He is complaining that most of these civs cannot put enough pressure on Sweden and come up ahead.
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Not surprised that the halberd start being an absolutely amazing trade-off âmakes no sense to youâ.
Apart from admitting that Hakkas needs a nerf (literally NO one has they that they donât), you seem to think Sweden is more than fine as is. Let me guess - caroleans - which are by every measure better than regular muskets including DPS (same DPS but even better against hand cav) - need a buff according to you, right?
I think youâre just a Sweden main who doesnât want to have to work slightly harder than you already do to get your free wins. And that you do lose from time to time, so âSweden canât possibly be OPâ.
Your bias is showing in full, please put it away.
Hakka needs some nerfs, not to the extent displayed in the PUP though - instead, the eco needs to be nerfed to compensate.
Does this link still work? I canât see the PUP details or updates.
Lol, says error now on the link.
Thank you for your precise and objective reply. I see the point with the halbs now, I am still unsure about their usefulness in a non defensive situation though. Melee Infantery is often in a difficult spot when faced with an enemy who can just kite them, at least on my ELO that still is the case (around 1500, so clearly lower than LevitexIslam, I am just stating this to put my POV in perspective). I get that age 3 units can be incredibly strong, and that this kind of push can be scary.
While your army investment is, by pure numbers, rather efficient, I would argue that you have to sacrifice a lot of (especially economic) tempo. It is a clear powerspike, and works wonderful in defensive positions with good unit-pop-spots in my opinion, but you do need to set your torp boming aside, and that means, at least in my experience, to some cav being spread out over the mines on the map. When I play against sweden, I mostly try to catch their torp vills while harassing their base. I prefer faster civs, so I see why I might not have a proper picture of how hard it is to punish a decent sweden player with a civ with slower start tempo.
Swedens eco is kind of their whole selling point isnât it?
Their eco has been nerfed severly several times already. Hakkas are a unit that overperforms, which would be much less of a problem if you were unable to spam them. I wholeheartedly agree that swedens eco in combination with hakkas is hard if not unfair to deal with.
But I donât know if nerfing their eco really supports their playstyle. What buffs would you suggest to balance out such nerfs? Not asking for fixed solutions, I am just curious of what your idea of a better balanced sweden would be.
And at last, thank you for a very concise and polite answer, I know that I was to harsh with my own reply here.
Please provide me with a rec or a twitch stream that showcases this. I am not trying to mock you, I really wanna see and learn if that works as well as you are describing it.
And you are deducting stuff from my reply that just wasnât there, I am sorry. I get that I was well of from a polite tone with my reply to you, but man, you gotta admit that your own contribution was just a tiny bit condescending. At least for my taste.
I never said that I think that they are fine the way they are now. Hakka as a mechanic needs a nerf. I actually like the idea of sweden havin a unit that permits them to somewhat clear small unit groups that are scattered around the map in order to get easier access to torpable mines. But of course, as I already mentioned in another post here, they should now be spammable as they are in the current meta. And neither as strong, just to be clear on that.
Sweden has been at the bottom of many tier lists for months now, after a lot of eco nerfs and such things. I would like to know what your image of a balanced sweden is â weaker eco, and thatâs it? Or some changes to provide better military for the cost? I am genuinly interested in your answer here.
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Sorry Boy
I do now a Test. I am a main Sweden Player i know that curch strat. First you can pop of these by 5:30 this is possible, correct. But when you tho that you have nothing behind. Nothing! So I asume when you say pop these on the 6:30 then you have 6 Torps behind a a tower forward (market also). Yeah is strong but there is a Window of 1:30 you have nothing one the field. Nothing!
I didnt played for 2 moths now. I am ranked 1300 and i do a Test. I play Brits i have my first Military out on 5:10 this first musket i can use to kill your Villager or idle your Villagers at least. The next for Musk go in groups of two to mines and bloc your villagers. On the mark 6:30 I have 25 Musk with two Tps and forward Barrack and Tower. Next Shipemt are 700 Wood, then Death Hussars. Sweden can do nothing against that pressure. I am ranked 1300 i am sure you can do that better and bring more musket out than I.
German can build and ships Swordmen. French can do the same as Brits. Russia can have at 5:10 5 Musk and 5 Kosaks in your Base. All Naitiv Civs can rush you also at 5 min. Mexiko an USA can also Rush you in a good time. Chines and India also. Their is plenty potiential too kill sweden in 7 min.
You are under the top 200 i am sure you can do better than i.
Sorry Boy you are hear also incorrect.
You are top 200. Then you now how early game fights wear fight. Shoot and move. Its correct that Carolines have more fire speed but 4 dmg less. So in the early and midgame it counts speed and damge and definitly not fire speed. Carolines have 0.25 more speed than standard musk. These speed isnt enought to doge shot, when you shot. When you are under the top 10 evtually you can that. Asigharus have 0.5 speed thats enought to doge shots. Then all Civs have skirms in age two in form of crossbows or other variants. This have 16 Range so you cant kitte anymore. When whe go two age 3 we have hear skirms with 20 range. With your upgrade in age 3 to 15 range for Carolians you have 5 less range than skirms, they can kitte you to death.
You have that 4 less damge in mind right? 4 less damage are affect Cards and Upgrades a lot. In the and Carolines have 44 dmg compared two a brit redcoat with 56 dmg. When you look at the healt of a red coat. Carolines are 14 dmg less to kill a musket in a round volley that mean you complet lose nearly one salvo.
I test this fight a lot. And i can say you. Red Coats wins at Age 4 to 80% only in Imperiale Age Carolines wins. And Red Coats arent by far the best Musket in the Game.
You just admitted that by 5:30 you can have 16 halberdiers out.
And then justified this by saying youâll have nothing for 90 seconds.
If I could have an eco that allows me to have 16 halberdiers at 5:30 but have ânothing but my villager productionâ for the next 90 seconds, I would take it in a heartbeat, and so would anyone.
The 6:30 timing is a more eco-friendly push and STILL completely formidable at that timing. That extra minute delay means you can pull keep on following up very easily with constant units and constant torps to boot.
You really just proved my point.
I say i have at the time 6:30 25 musk. That mean i have earlyer also musks not 25 musk but 10-15 musk and when you push me in the base i can call minutmen they i have also the TC and villager as Meatshield only when you lose 6-7 Halbs i can kite you, i have a barrack you didnt have that. You have also no shimpent. I play that test with Greenwich. Not standard their is more potentiall.
You can start with double barrack with brits and then push. Really agressiv and not much eco behind correct but i have more then 15 musk out when you come with halbs and ten more in production, when you have nothing behind that.
Dont turn my word against me. Think before you writte its clear that 25 musk dont pop out of the shadow. Sorry you are definitly not top 200. Tell us your ingame Name. Its a achivement to reach top 200. Dont be shy.
I am ranked 1300 i stay to that. Not special and i say i am not so good but i have a good knowlege of the Game and i test a lot. I also write with top players (Ezad, JulianK,âŠ) and i speak with them. Its correct that they see Carolians in a good spott were they are. They are diffrent to my opinion, and thats ok. But with the Eco that is definitly fine and not brooken, what your opinion is.
Use this
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The best 2nd age in the long run is the Aztecs
I didnât say that caroleans need a nerf or arenât in a good spot. I said the eco of Sweden allows them to amass way more than they should be allowed to in the current meta.
I was countering the point that someone made that caroleans are âworse musketsâ, which they are literally BETTER muskets.