Castle spearsmen do 32 melee dmg to cav on a 1.88s attack speed and 0.29 melee range. So effectively spearsmen need to catch the cav or better put the cav likely needs to CHOOSE to fight spears. Spears have 110 hp in castle. So basically spearsmen at decent to high level, pre mega mass, need poke and retreat as cav flirt with them and some get pick off in the body blocking proccess slash cat and mouse mini game. When spears do connect they need 9 stabs to kill 1 knight.
Summary melee unit cost 80 res needs to connect within 0.29 tiles to do dmg, takes 9 hits to kill a knight and has 110 hp.
Now jans. Castle jans do 32 range dmg to cav, 3.5 tile range on a 1.75s attack speed, has 85? Hp (i forget). Jans need 9 volleys to snipe a knight. Now getting shooters to focus fire is waaaaaaaaay more efficient than poking with spears (before the mega critical mass thing). And to insure your jans are well supported team them up with lots and lots of spahi!!! If knights wanna body block? Thatâs fine!! Trade your 160 jans via archer fire for their 240 knights via jan focus fire then may the last spahi vs range play with each other when the smoke clears!!
Jans cant kill MAA? Ugh you got crossbows for that!! Crossbow jans spahi!! Or you can go mega mega spahi for body blocking and kite with jans.
Jans gunpowder unit is an AOE3 type where (musk, huss) is king (until high micro skirm goon comes along). But this game doesnt have a horseback anti cav unit yet; whuch means ppl dont have the hang of it yet.
Probably they will fix it. Right now jans and great bombards are just a joke.Pupâs have a purpose i guess .
Jannies are real crap with 3.5 range and most fragile stats in game. Even single villager is more durable then them (they are meant to be a soldier after all xD 11 )
Whats the counter for HCâs then ? when it comes to jannies everything besides light cav is a HARD or Soft counter to themâŠThey are Gunpowder unit they cant even counter MAAâs. Even mass spearmen fights against Jannis cost effectively.They have clearly no role in game. Probably devs will fix it before release .
Why should i use Jannis then ? Rather then xbows and sipahis ? Jannies have no role in castle age and even negative role in imp.
For me just Replacing Jannies with standart Hand Cannoneers (re-skinned Jannies) would be waaay better choice for ottos.Maybe with random stat bonus like +8 or 10 attack or just more HP or something.
Dude first of all you have to hold your horsesâŠ
1)These things that you write is only on paper . In practice( because of overkill ) Xbows perform against cavalry very similiar to jans but Xbows are way more cheaper and easier to mass.
2)Xbows dont die to all ranged attacks like jans . (Jans are like a paper against all sort of ranged attacks, and in the middle of battles there are tons of ranged attacks )
3)Xbows are wrecking MMAâs and other infantries as wellâŠJans are not able to kill MMAâs also MMAâs can wreck Jans too.
4)Even spearmen can counter jannis cost efficiently.
5)Please dudeâŠYou are counting volleysâŠBut in practice it dont work like that because u cant perfectly micro ur every 9 jannissairy against full HP Hcav while arrows are like a death ball everywhere. xD 11
6)We are TALKIN ABOUT unique unit which barely does Xbows job while being more expensive maybe 4 times more fragile and cant do anything against any other unitsâŠTHATS NOT F A I R âŠWith this garbage stats jannis shouldnât even ask for goldâŠBecause they are exact definition of ââTRASHââ unit
Hope you understand now.
Note: Late game Light Cav costing no gold could easily outnumber jannis ( which is one of the most expensive crap unit ) and you know whatâŠWhen outnumbered even light cav PERFECTLY erase jannis as they have very poor hp zero armor nothing at allâŠ
In short JANNIS in this game total GARBAGE
Its fair to say from what you said you donât understand how to play this game? KEKW
160 resources isnât WAYY more expensive than 120 resources??? likewise 22s is not SUPPPER fast compared to 28s.
Finally why does Jan have to beat spears and maa?? Also can crossbow repair siege? And since Jans are paper at 90hp how are crossbow at 80hp better? oh crossbow donât take extra range dmg? So why not make horseman or better yet Mangos? to deal with the range units?
Also look at the math again 14 volleys from crossbows vs 9 volleys from Jan; whatâs more important than the volleys is the TIME; Jans kill cav almost TWICE as fast as crossbows? This means even if you take your whole crossbow mass and you focus fire 1, 2 ,3 ,4 knights one after the other? Jans will do that same 1, 2 ,3 ,4 20% faster???
Next take a closer look at normal size castle fights and setup time; to make 14 crossbows from 2 archery ranges you need 154s of training time and 1680 resources; meanwhile to field 9 Jans you need 140s of training time and 1440 resources. So if you were rushing to Castle and wanted to make a quick army to deal with some knights youâd more readily be prepared with Jans as oppose to xbows.
Further proof that you canât play this game decently. Yes you CAN micro a clump of jans to focus fire knights?? YOu can use command groups as well as just select a clump of units (so what its 12 instead of 9? or even 15?). You can do the clump/group command thing every 2.12s with crossbows as oppose to 1.75s with Jans.
You donât know what youâre talking aboutâŠIf you sit there and let a large mass of spearman run into your jans the yea maybe? the spears will trade? OR you can MICRO your jans backwards away from the spears and even if you overkill that measly 9 castle dmg will take a loong time to kill while being kited.
Again Jans are a specialty unit meant to SPECIFICALLY and efficiently kill melee cavalry and protect siege/ repair siege; THATS IT!! They are NOT meant to behave like a HC; they are MEANT to have a counter AND therefore fit into a support system; why it is you ppl keep wanting an all purpose unit??? I donât understand.
It is fair to say its going nowhere . Jannis have very small window to be played in good purpose. But this window is like super super small like u cant even imagine.
Just use xbows instead of crap jannies and you are fine thats all. Oh i almost forgot they repair siege equipments so i can bring few vils at least they are more resilliant against most attacks 11
In imp age ## ##### or frank arbalesters are even extraordinaryly better then ur supportive 100g costing crap unit.
I hope you can use this jannis and win a single ranked game 11 xd
Oh i forgot 3 dmg upgrade they have in imp wow that would make them op xd
Kiting spearmen with 100g unit would be kinda painfull to watch for me xd
160 res unit which is barely good against cavarlyâŠPERFECT DESIGN.
Your understanding of the game is only on paper. My practices with them is AWFULLâŠ
I played like 30 games with them using jannies and seeing they stupidly die against everthing even cavarly when they got closeâŠcrap unit 100g for this crap? No thanks xd probably devs would fix them before release i guess. But ottos will find their place at f tier civ jo matter even jans are corrected. 900g bombard is awfully bad too comsidering how fragile and expensive they are
So, basically Jans only purpose is to fight cav, being completely useless in any other situation, and being obliterated by any other ranged unit (hello mangonels).
You see our point?
Why would I train an unit that only kills cav and get obliterated by everything else when I can train xbows, that does less damage to cav, but performs better versus everything else?
adding hand cannoners along side with jans or removing jans are not a good option and iâd hate it personally. Buffing jans to make it strong expensive unit is much better.
thats what i thought after long conversations. Increasing their cost between streltsy and hand cannoners and buffing them so level that they are slightly better against HC in 1v1 ,maintaining %50 weakness or balancing it . Balancing bonus againts cav - reducing it to not make it broken-.
it is so easy to balance this they must make its base attack 22 for normal and 26 for imperial janissary then they must lower to attack to cav to %50 bonus damage so they will do more damage to everthing else and to cavalry they will deal same damage. %50 bonus to cav and %50 more damage from range attacks this is how it must be
second solution lower their gold price at least 20 and increase their range 1.5 case solved goodbye
We want them comparable to the hand cannoneer BECAUSE THEY ARE REPLACING THE DAMN THING.
Itâs like if the devs launched china without handcannons justifying that they have fire lancers or something. You say Jans are a different unit? Fine, still want actual hand cannoneers.
Youâre bizarrely reductive ranting on this topic boils down to you SOMEHOW not comprehending the simple fact that Ottomans can do ONE LESS thing than ALL other civs.
Yes I can run jans with xbows and spears and seige to cover all the bases this unit cant do. Or I could cut the jans out all together and have the 100 gold and 60 food for units that are better designed.
What your asinine (and NEEDLESSLY POMPOUS) theory crafting misses is that the people who are talking, have already gone through the numbers, went in game to confirm, saw jans get rolled by the cav they âcounterâ and THEN came to post. Youâre behind the curve if anything, now contain this borderline flaming going on in your responses.
Janissary replace HC as much as Javelin Throwers replace crossbows⊠unit for unit replacement NOT FUNCTIONALITY CLEARLYâŠat least I hope maybe we can see it ??
I never argued anyone desire to have HC; just correct each of you that Jans are not HC.
Mali canât do several things most standard civs can do?? Sounds like youâre trying to say NOT being able to do something most others can do is a problem? Meanwhile Otto civ doesnât have a range gunpower unit, YET no other civs have military that can repair siege, noR units that can efficiently counter all melee cavalry AT RANGE (crossbow can counter heavy cav but not light cav, HC/strel can counter all things but not light cav efficiently); there are several things this faction can do that other faction cannot.
What better designed unit? Plus why did you have Jans and spears??? Maybe you meant crossbow jans and spahi?(horseman)??
Can you link the game experience posted so we all can judge for ourselves? B/c all I see are renditions of personal experiences with zero proof to share predominately from mid to low players? Also I made reference to both BEASTYQT (i think heâs pro?) and Kasva (another pro?) that do NOT share this threads sentiment on this unit??? Youâd think of anyone should know a trash unit it should be some pros at the game?? Maybe they donât understand eitherâŠ
Maybe I should link their respective remarks on the unit??
You are absolutely wrong here as wellâŠHand Cannons trade perfectly well against even light cavâŠAnd hand cannons dont die like they are nothingâŠ
Do you know that generic Hand cannon deals 73 raw dmg to jannies ? Still think jannies are good designed and balanced unit ??? I cant take you seriously anymore dude
Like I said, Iâm arguing with person that simply do NOT understand basic game mechs?? He thinks HC trade well in an open field matchup efficiently vs light melee cavâŠ
I just think that they are weak and too situational.
Itâs like camel rider, too situational, so in the end useless. But Abbasid still got horsemen or knights, because they are different unit as you said @Shneider177
Also, they can repair siege ok, but nowadays everyones brings some villagers to battle to build walls, castles, etc, so it is in fact a good feature to jans but not one feature than compensates the 50% damage taken and the average low performance.
They are military unit, they are thought to fight not to repair.
only difference is cost tbh in this matchup and Beastyqt win only 1 match with Ottomans as i remember while he kept winning when he switched to malians. He can like jans and have another opinions for balance doesnt necessarily means its right just because he is a pro player .