Decrease Jannis cost to (50g 60f or something) and add HC’s to ottos would be ok i guess. Only then i can create some of them for repairing job and protecting siege machines. And using Hand cannons besides sipahi would be great.
nah thats not fun nor nice. Dont think that would fix our issues as well. Ottos shouldnt have hc instead janissaries should get a big buff.
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Hello, I was just passing here by to remind you that I am watching you, keep up a good discussion (?
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Thats on THIS website. See that in the red circle? Type it out for us so we know you can read properly, its is in serious doubt at this point.
Janissary replace HC as much as Javelin Throwers replace crossbows… unit for unit replacement NOT FUNCTIONALITY CLEARLY…at least I hope maybe we can see it ??
Then royal knights shouldnt be knights. Longbows dont need to be archers. STRELTSY dont need baseline HC stats. You have no basis. Enough patronizing.
I never argued anyone desire to have HC; just correct each of you that Jans are not HC.
See linked image. You didnt correct anyone on account of being deadass wrong.
Mali can’t do several things most standard civs can do??
The fuck? They have functional ranged, melee, infantry, cavalry, gunpowder, and siege units. These are basics and they have them. Ottos effectively dont have gunpowder and no equivalence.
Sounds like you’re trying to say NOT being able to do something most others can do is a problem? Meanwhile Otto civ doesn’t have a range gunpower unit, YET no other civs have military that can repair siege, noR units that can efficiently counter all melee cavalry AT RANGE (crossbow can counter heavy cav but not light cav, HC/strel can counter all things but not light cav efficiently); there are several things this faction can do that other faction cannot.
Sounds like you really do have a comprehension issue. Try not to compound it baseless ego. Melee and ranged infantry. Light and heavy cavalry. Siege and Anti siege. General purpose infantry. These are the most basic elements of all civs. Referring to the linked image - the one that CLEARLY LABLES the janissary as the Ottoman HC - we have that the Ottomans alone are the ones without a general purpose infantry.
HC’s are known to smash any infantry/cav comp at a critical mass. Mangonels are considered the only proper counter cuz horsemen dont work even with balanced cost. You think light cav beats HC’s. You are wrong.
Crossbows are also dangerous to horsemen in critcal mass - the power of xbows has been point of contention of pros for some time now. Again, your’re wrong.
The military reparing siege…the civ bonus? The one that every civ has, which are meant to be unique but designed to ultimately achive a similar power level?? Specifically the one that got nerfed so hard recently, no one even spares a single vil to bother with it??? Reaching.
What better designed unit? Plus why did you have Jans and spears??? Maybe you meant crossbow jans and spahi?(horseman)??
That was a conditional hypothetical. You need less than 90 IQ to not understand it. You did not understand it.
Can you link the game experience posted so we all can judge for ourselves? B/c all I see are renditions of personal experiences with zero proof to share predominately from mid to low players? Also I made reference to both BEASTYQT (i think he’s pro?) and Kasva (another pro?) that do NOT share this threads sentiment on this unit??? You’d think of anyone should know a trash unit it should be some pros at the game?? Maybe they don’t understand either…
How about I just link you to youtube? We have near a dozen games already of Beastyqt, MarineLord, Demuslim, etc getting dunked on for making janissaries. I’ve seen their initial impressions. I’ve seen their impressions change after playing with them. They learned, we wateched, and the bus seems to have left without you, cuz you’re still at the first impression stage,
Referencing Beastyqt and Kasva doesn’t make you Beastyqt or Kasva. Hell, with all the basic facts you got wrong and the general ######## #### I cant eve give you the benefit of good faith anymore. AFAIK you’re just crapping out whatever you think should work out without ANY real work behind it and tossing in stuff from statsheets cuz you think thats good enough to be smart analysis. Nah.
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Not even close sarge.
Infact if you make janissaries, you’ll have less pop for … literally anything else. Its a throw to make 'em.
It saddens me that you circle Handcannoneers and COMPLETELY miss the context “…Ottoman civilization SPECIFIC…”
Since we playing pedantic semantics?
According to Dictionary.com the word SPECIFIC means:
having a special application, bearing, or reference; specifying, explicit, or definite:
to state one’s specific purpose.
specified, precise, or particular:
a specific sum of money.
peculiar or proper to somebody or something, as qualities, characteristics, effects, etc.:
His specific problems got him into trouble.
of a special or particular kind.
You see?? had they said “the Ottoman civilization’s Handcannoneer”, THEN you’d have a point since there would be no uniqueness references being made…I KNOW YOU KNOW what you did there…
Also the Comparison you completely botched? Had 2 parts to it? Hence why you SIDE-STEP it to further reinforce your claim.
YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT ONE THING! I miss used the term “HC” (aka handcannoneers ); I was using the term to reference and ONLY reference Ranged Gunpowder Infantry; and as I can see clearly this is NOT how Relic uses the term. HOwever it doesn’t take away from the clear tooltips that specifically tell you that Janissaries are Gunpowder Infantry and NOT Ranged Gunpower Infantry. If you wanna circle something like “LOOK THAT HC TERM IS THERE!” Then you also have to consider how “HEY LOOK THE RANGE term is NOT THERE?!”
You … arbitrarily
decide what unit types each civ needs and which does and doesn’t have your alleged necessary categories… um what are Man-at-Arms? Are they infantry? Did Relic describe this unit (the MAA) as a general purpose infantry unit?
No the pro do not say a such ridiculous thing?? Had you watch the tournament or listen to any of the pros ever since siege got nerf and horsemen kept getting buff, they all rant how strong cavalry are overall ESP the horseman!!
You mean the 1500 resource Great Bombard? You telling me you’re not gonna bother to repair it?? Further proof u dont know what you’re talking about because if you watch pro gamers when they go heavy siege they HAVE VILS on the frontline repairing their 3000-4000+ resources worth of siege !! So yes, having military that can repair is FUNCTIONAL?
Watch your mouth and check your emotions… if you wanna talk spicy I can add you on discord or WhatsApp, then we can “talk”.
Next you’re telling me to make reference to what someone else has said means I’m impersonating them?? Stop, you’re argumentation has been falling apart left and right hence your necessity to fill in the void with ad hominem.
I honestly think Janissaries need some sort of buff. I don’t think they are as bad as some people here claim. 18-20 damage a shot against fully upgraded men-at-arms is still decent, they also fire significantly faster than the crossbowman and faster then other hand cannoneers. also the mehter can buff their attack speed another 15% faster. although I think that 6 more damage each shot against cavalry compared to the base hand cannoneer is very underwhelming for an anti cavalry specialist.
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Main problem here is +%50 more ranged dmg taken thing…Thats huge problem…Light Cav has a bonus against Jans , mangos have a bonus , trebs , cannons ,towers , cav archers , camel archers, archers , xbows , springards , handcannons all these units have a DECENT bonus against jans …Its like even if you spit on then it would be bonus against them 11 xD Villager throws rock janny boyz dies xD 11
Jans die like they are nothing. Thats absurd…And this unit has a HUGE cost 100g 60f thats stupid .
I can understand trash gunpowder concept but they shouldn’t cost like this. Even 60g 60f is too much for a unit that dies more easier then single villager or monk.
I understand most people just doesn’t want strong jannis its fine by me. Just nerf jannis even more lets say take this bonus against cavalry too and just decrease their 100g cost for the love of the god xD
It pains my eyes having all jans die like a paper by any random missile object in battle after paying 100g for a unit 
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Ignoring the troll in the comments, I’d like to offer some thoughts to your actual post.
Your points seem workable. So your elite janissary would have
- 130hp
- 28 damage (+14 vs cav), 34 with chemistry
- 4 range
- 1.25 movespeed
- 1.75 attack speed
Here’s my proposal:
- Scale down the bonus damage to +50% from foot archers ONLY (archers/crossbows/etc)
- Base ranged damage of 22 in age 3 with an attack speed of 1.75
- Base melee damage of 16 in age 3 with an attack speed of 1.25
- Base armor of 3/2
- Hp of 95 in age 3
- Base range of 3.5
- Move speed of 1.12
- Cost of 80 food 160 gold
- Elite upgrade adds 6 range damage, 20 hp, 4 melee damage, and +1 ranged armor
Unique upgrades:
- Yenicheri - adds 2 damage to ranged and melee attack of janissaries in age 3, 125 food, 250 gold
- Yatagan - adds 4 melee damage in age 3, 200 food, 300 gold
- Muskets - adds 2 range in age 4, 250 food, 750 gold
- Imperial Cadence - Doubles the effects of Mehters for janissaries and sipahis in age 4, 250 food, 750 gold
I intend for them to be a functional main unit - the kind that gets support units, not provides the support Starting with the melee/ranged damage difference and explaining that.
So the ranged damage was meant to be like a better crossbow by a slight margin - accounting for armor/damage upgrades they both kill the average age 3 maa in 10 shots, but the janissary has a higher fire rate so its an expensive upscale option. The elite upgrade consider the effects of Chemistry and the lack of blacksmith upgrades and tries to keep that same ratio of shots needed. In the end it should feel like a stronger but less practical for age 3 and then much more attractive once you have the unique techs
The melee damage was scaled according to the landsknecht - the given for of the janissary mimics it closely, from the cost to the base damage numbers. I though I’d roll with it. Jans wont get damage from the blacksmith or Elite Army Tactics, so the base damage at all ages needs to be big enough to compensate for that - not in full but at least in part. The end goal is to make janissaries strong enough to beat landsankes 1v1 ##### #### ### still lose in mass since winning mass fights is the whole shtick of the big sword boys. In the end they should have the same attack and hp with all techs for each unit (blacksmith, university, unique, etc), but jans win the 1v1 of the back of the base melee armor.
Speaking of, the decision to add armor - this an expensive main unit. I do expect it to take a few hits every now and again. The armor is low enough that dedicated ranged and melee units like maa and crossbows can beat it in their own specialties, but high enough that you cant out trade jans with spearmen spam. I kept the hp low for the start because I do want archers, xbows and maa to win if they get the right engagement. Ranged cav will have the unique distinction of getting bodied from go - no bonus for them.
The base range and speed are leashes for the sake of the age 3 ecosystem. The need weaknesses significant enought to make them fall back. Until the unique techs kick in, I intend for janissaries to have to be careful around basic ranged units and strong/fast melee units (palace guards, knights, mass lands). Alot of power is gatekept by upgrades so the power spikes aren’t too big.
The cost was designed with the Ottoman late game in mind. So the civ has NO extra production for food. Alot of the base 8 civs have some kind of bonus - Eng and Abbasid stand out, but even mongols technically have boosted techs and sheep for farms. Ottos - nothing. Nothing but trade that is. The only big eco play you have with the current tools is to have traders bringing in a buttload of gold. The janissary is intended to be unit you rely the most on in the end game - so it makes sense for it to have a higher gold cost since the civ has an easier time gathering gold than food. It also acts as a balancing factor - before the trade takes off, jans are gonna be slow to mass and thats intended
Last thing it the unique techs. I want the janissary to be close to its IRL form in the give period - big ass kicker. If I give it the stats to dominate all other units right out the gate in age 3 and 4, then it’l need an impractical cost to balance that power. The techs spreads out that power so it doesn’t feel as overwhelming. You end up paying 2875 res on top of upgrades and chemistry to unlock what is the best infantry unit of the era. That seems fair - if not, potential nerf bats can be more more nuaced with adjusting costs and techs instead of just beating the unit design into the ground. There’s a thematic trend in the techs too; janissaries became the best army of the time. I want it to feel like you’re developing the army as you go; Yenicheri starts distinguishing it from standard age 3 units, Yatagan emphasizes the greater versatility, Muskets shows the tech advantage, and Imperial Candence is the swag for getting that far while also making other elements of the civ more relevant.
It;s a high end handcanoneer that is something like a musofadi gunner with more melee damage. Counters most infantry and cavalry, but loses to mangonels like all other handcannons.
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Yep, but it’s what I said, is a good feature but not a feature that would someone think “hey I will build some Jans si I can repair my siege”.
Because you can just bring villagers to the battle to repair and build things.
Also, think that if you are using your jans to repair in the middle of a battle it is firepower you are losing in the moment.
I’m in favor of keep repair feature but Jans in general need a second think.
Even the top 1 player at the moment (Beastyqt) in his Otto analysis said Jans right now are trash.
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Cool suggesttion. I think 160 gold is too much cuz cutting trade is not hard if trade is cut player wont have much gold and it’ll be difficult to train janissaries.
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The average HC costs 120 gold (90 for Rus and French), and I am planning to make the Janissary alot stronger than those. Trade is pretty much the only eco boost the Ottos have got - and it only gives gold unlike some other trade civs. Dont really have another boost to rely on, and I kinda dont wanna touch the eco stuff just yet - it’s really only the jan that sucks about the civ, all else is reasonable.
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All pros think Jans are trash in fact. Very situational ~ useless. They need to speak diplomatically, you see.
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So true. In crackedy’s game he was flabbergasted as his mighty Jans got melted by… a garrisoned outpost!!!
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奥斯曼火枪手受到50%的远程伤害使得他们受到了太多不应该的克制，至少我认为他们不应该被弩手和城堡甚至是手推炮克制。对奥斯曼火枪手的克制应该被移动到步弓手上而不是简单粗暴的受到50%远程伤害。
Translation：Ottoman Jannissary taking 50% ranged damage are being countered too much, at least I don’t think they should be countered by crossbow and castles or even KEEPS AND BOMBAR(OTTO‘s super bombar kill 30 Janissary for ONE shot’)???. Restraint against Ottoman Janissary should be moved to the Archer instead of simply taking 50% ranged damage.
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True but not enough adjust. I killed so many mighty legend Janisary easy and quick used English villagers.
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- Increase janissary cost to total 180-250 (currently 60 food 100 gold =160)
- Increase their castle age stats to 100 health 20 damage (90-16 currently)
- Balance %50 bonus damage from ALL ranged unit (taking bonus from all of them is broken)
- Reduce bonus damage againts cav to 1.5x (2x currently)
- Increase Elite janissary upgrade to normal 300 food 700 gold (currently 150-350)
- Elite upgrade gives 15 health 4 damage make it 30 health 8 damage
- Increase their range to 4 tiles just like normal cannoner
thats my suggestion for Jans
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basically giving 100g to absolute weak unit seem pointless to me.They are fragile as dumb.Their range is blindly low. Their dps isn’t working fine…They can even be killed by infantry , few archers , surrounding cavalry , mangonels …Allmost everything. Most of the people i talked or watched casting have same feeling.
Here is the solution;
+Regular Jannis 4 range 20 dmg
+Elite ones 4.5 range 28 dmg
+Ranged dmg taken +%25 or just remove this negative debuff
or if you devs want jannis to trash gunpowder unit which is kinda cool too then , please lower their gold cost into 50 or 60.But then you should add standart HC’s to Ottos as well.
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Not useless, just different and not the all-rounder that handcannons are. Bonus dmg vs. cav and can repair siege. Saw Beasty using them to great effect vs. Kasva’s French earlier today. They’re meant to protect siege but may not be a good choice if you’re not facing much enemy cavalry.
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They have only 1 purpose and simple spearmen can do this job way better then them with way more easier way and lower cost nothing in the game dies to ranged units like jannies even simple villagers or monks are more durable against ranged units which makes ZERO sense to me They are a soldier after all they shouldn’t be that trash … Other thing is they are so fragile with way too low hp and zero armor so when cavalry surrounds them they die to cavalry as well…100g 60f for such a trash unit is damn to much… They can’t even handle infantry… Bad concept of an unit i can say…Having no Hand Cannoneer and interestingly expensive GBBC which is not as strong as generic one …I don’t know what to say ? New -F tier civ is ottos. Ottos need a powerhouse they don’t have anything for that role…You will probably see what i mean after civ tier lists are released by pros.Or any tournament matches.
100 point question for you…Would u pick ottos in any serious tournament game ?
And if u watch pro players otto vs mali matches u can understand how extremely bad otto performs.
If ottos are released like this i don’t think they would find their places in ranked games…
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