January PUP Feedback 2023

not sure if it ever did to be honest, as weird as that sounds, also applies to all the shadow flicker

This is what I’ve found to be annoying since the game has been released. I think there was a big prize money tournament match where during the late game a steppe didn’t unpack so 20-30 workers went for super long distance gold minging for several minutes. One could argue it’s kind of the duty for the mongol player to check if everything has unpacked everytime but it is kind of impossible to predict and atleast to me its unreliability was just super annoying.

French Trade Nerf: I feel like my opinion is a minority point of view, especially since Beasty on YouTube seemed to dislike the old chamber of commerce and likes the free traders. But if the goal was to get this landmark more play, it has had the opposite effect on myself. Many of the landmark choices are All-in Rush style versus the long game (my preference personally, but depends on the situation, especially 1v1 or 4v4). Long game I would have to build the chamber because I want the better trade. But now I just get a finite number of free resources in the form of traders. I can just build a regular market, and utilize to school of cavalry. You could split the difference and have 10% or 20% and some traders. That’s my 2¢. Thx.

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Firstly the new troops tied to landmarks is awesome, the Ui and Minimap too, but pls move it a little closer to the edge and an option to make the Icons bigger would be nice.

Give Ottomans Horsearcher, tie it to Vesir points or a landmark and make it an active ability for the Sipahi, with a time limit.

Don´t make the hardest Ai a cheating one, just add a Cheater Ai or give us the option to set the gather multiplier for the Ai.

I have an idea to make the Siege Tower viable:

-let us attach the Tower to a part of enemy Wall, so infantry troops can, with one click climb enemy walls, instead of getting troops in the tower and teleporting troops behind the wall.

-The Siege Tower gives a little buff around it when it´s attached to a Wall

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I 100% agree with @JohnDresty. It’s not a fair trade-off for the french to get some free traders earlier in the game just to lose the 30% trade bonus for land and water. This new change to the chamber of commerce gives me no reason to use it from now on, especially since it only provides free land traders and not ship traders, so it isn’t useful on water maps.

Dev’s please keep the trade bonus of 30% for french. Even though the majority most likely use the School of Calvary for rushes, there are those of us who prefer the long game and to have our trading efforts pay off in the late game. I liked that the options for the French Age 2 landmarks were more geared towards different styles of play, now they are just more focused on early gameplay.


a change ± of 10 resources in Hulk and compensating in some way with the ± production time, will make the costs, more friendly to learn

  • Make the buildings rotatable even if its just 4 direction im ok with it

  • Unit ui can be improved to show everything like in aoe3

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A humble request to stop trying to push for trade to be a viable choice in earlier stages of the game. I know that a number of landmarks (including the landmarks for the two most recent civs) have been designed with feudal trade in mind, but I think it’s a bad direction for the game. The trade boom is the strongest boom in the game, and it requires that your opponent either disrupt the trade quickly, or else trade themselves.

With current map design, trade happens behind one’s starting base, which makes it more difficult to effectively attack. It also creates a similar situation to how water used to work…where there would be a kind of razor edge fight for water control, and then whoever won would have access to a massive economic benefit that basically always led to a win. Often in high level 1v1s you’ll see this battle play out with trade…a Mongol player will set up trade, the opponent will attempt to disrupt trade, if they’re successful they usually win…if they can’t disrupt it they lose.

This is unlike the far more interesting economic benefits of things like sacred sites or deer packs. These are all both in more central locations of the map, far more easy to disrupt/contest…and also they provide less decisive benefits. Someone can secure an extra deer pack or some sacred sites and the game is not over. Securing them generates an advantage, but it still leaves room for play. They don’t scale in the same way that trade does, or the same way that water (especially pre-nerf deep water) does.

I also think it’s generally better to incentivize players to be out on the map, engaging with one another. The old 3-4 TC meta was bad because the meta leaned too heavily to simcity like gameplay and less early player interaction. Changes to increasing the value of deer packs helped improve the importance of map control. Trade incentivizes a very defensives, turtle-y sort of gameplay with what is often a very binary breaking point…can my opponent disrupt my trade or not…instead of a more incremental and interesting sets of gains and losses while fighting over still important but less overwhelming economic advantages (sites, deer, etc).

Maybe there’s still space for early trade, but if so I’d argue it should only be effective against a pretty narrow set of opponent choices. Maybe trading could be a winning counter to someone turtling and booming on 2-3 TCs, for instance. But, it should lose quickly and easily to someone going 1 TC aggression. Currently, civs like the Mongols can trade early while also getting enough production to defend against 1 TC aggression. I think this is a problem.

tl;dr, encouraging a fight for map control, and securing the important but more incremental economic benefits that it entails is good…encouraging a turtling-style of economic booming which forces a singular, all-or-nothing engagement is bad. And, even worse when this heavy boom style wins against a dedicated rushing strategy!


Nomad megarandom FFA game mode

This is probably the best game mode in aoe4. This gives nearly anyone a chance to win. Played a last night and come 3rd plat 1. The person that won was gold 2 and 2nd was Diamond 2.

We already have it for custom games. It needs a ranking system and some more features that separate it form your normal rank games.

Aoe4, campaign and 1-8 players multiplayer. Simple like every other rts game. You could add 16 players and could make it the battle royal of rts games

There are some major issues, but I don’t think people are pointing them out, they’re just focussing on the more played factions.


-Needs to have a limit on the number of free units. Cap it at 30 or something. Unlimited is just unreasonable.


  • Put a limit on the number of scholars to 6. I just played a 3v3 Delhi elephants with 30 healers and it was unstoppable and ended the game on its own. 20 crossbows vs 1 healer and it kept getting healed before the next volley, no dent to that army was possible.

  • increase research speed slightly or reduce cost of scholars, but keep them limited.


This needs to be nerfed. Their eco and soldiers pick up speed so quickly and then they’re unstoppable.


Good AOE siege with the bee’s nest, probably needs some nerfing too and something similar to other factions.

Generic stuff:

Bring an auto queue button.

I like the game and do enjoy it, but it’s so unbalanced that it’s putting me off from the game…

At the moment players need to avoid certain situations or the game is over and theres nothing you can do to stop it. Delhi with invincible healer numbers; HRE accumulating bonuses; or surviving Chinese siege build up. I get wanting to give unique stuff from each faction and different play styles, but each faction should be able to defeat each other (no matter which age), even if it’s slightly more difficult but not unstoppable. At the moment it’s rock, paper, scissors with factions and you have a narrow window before it’s over.

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With 3 madrasas, each technology takes practically 1 minute and 34 seconds. please make your arguments with data

Nest of Bees already has the smallest effective range of the splash damage siege and doesn’t have a bonus vs ranged like Mangonel does. Why does it need to be nerfed?


Have you looked at any of the data? Like on aoe4 world for example. It’s usually pretty well balanced.

I don’t think any of the things you mentioned are unbalanced really. Although, it’s too soon to say what the post PUP patch balance will look like.

I’m just like you, man

Landmark Feedback: Just in case someone else did not mention some of these observations on the landmarks. Some of these comments are collected from other’s observations.

  • Chamber of Commerce: boooo. I would take the old one anyday over the school of cavalry, but never the new one. A mix of the two would be fine, but not zero percent.
  • House of Learning: Definitely an improvement with fun techs. However, still a hard sell against the awesome benefits of the compound of the defender.
    (a) I always liked Tranquil Venue (and especially Medical Centers). But Tranquil Venue is only “out of combat” compared with Medical Centers. This matters. One idea, is a variation on what you did for monks in general. The old Tranquil Venue was 1hp/s, now 2. You could have it heal 1hp/s (like medical centers) during combat and 2hp/s out of combat!
    (b) The garrison range for lookout towers is great. (if you could boost damage like with the wooden fortress +1 that would be an even better sell).
    (c) Also new offensive The Compound of Defender is very powerful but good for defensive situation. This HoL is a hodge podge. I recommend 1 or 2 more offensive techs to go with the special +3 blade. e.g. this is one good place to put in more of the cut campaign techs in such as: Crannequins (for elephant x-bows +2) or Silk Bow strings for all archers +2.
    (d) 1 more tech that would not be OP is if there was something that effected monks (scholars), similiar to the special benefits Rus and HRE get, that would complement them with elephants. Either more health, or put some of their special techs from monastery into the HoL.
    [Side Note: Now that you have a tech for houses to fire arrows, please consider reworking Chinese Villages which are terrible to garrison in. Can they at least throw rocks?]
  • King’s Abbey: Guess, what. I always built the Abbey of Memes so I like it even more now. But it could be a little more useful without buffing the king.
    (a) The campaign shows it with the ability to hold a relic! You could make it like a Pagoda. This would be an awesome incentive to build it. You could give it x3 resources reasonably (becauce it would only hold 1 relic, unlike HRE or the 3 pagodas). Or just x2 because you do get the king and healing effect of course. It is a religious building after all when you click on it.
    (b) Consider this please. An upgrade tech in the Abbey in Castle that switches the healing to while in combat for the building, and maybe in Imperial a second tech level that applies this to the King. This would be awesome but not too OP, like I assume it would be in feudal. Would be fun.

Abbey of Kings Relic 1 - Copy

  • Berkshire: Very good with the 15 range accross the board and garrison arrow damage specifically. Would be nice if it could have a second cannon, which no one has.

  • Wynguard: Concept is awesome. However, I think the actual units need a lot of work.
    (a) The Treb Army is still awesome because it is a such a deal, and you improved it perfectly by making the units complement it instead of being a hodge podge. The pikemen defend the treb, etc.
    (b) But the footmen and rangers are pretty expensive for basically MMA and longbowmen. Especially since you only get 6 at time. The rangers, like bowmen, you would want to have dozens in imperial. Same with the footmen. Perhaps make them even more expensive but you get a batch of 12 or 20! unless that is too nuts.
    (c) The Raiders are boring and expensive. Some people may like it, but I speak for a certain minority that don’t really appreciate the faster production time (of a regular unit). I will just build more stables. Especially in imperial!? My argument against the council hall for the past year, was it is only saving you 300 wood (2 archery ranges) or basically vill time of 7min. But this matters in feudal where seconds count. But in imperial I have no use for this.

  • Khaganate and Sultan: These are pretty awesome buildings. However, they still suffer from the pop limit problem where your free resources are wasted if you are pop limited for too long. Unlike the Wynguard, where they are just queued up. More of a problem for the Sultan building since it eats up an additional 4 wasted pop limit because you have to put scholars in the building to speed it up. One other suggestion for the Sultan building, is to have it put out a mix like the Khaganate and Wynguard, perhaps the Cannoneer elephant and 2 scholars, etc…

  • Red Palace & College of Artillery: Amazing and perfect. Frankly, some of these changes are buffs to both landmarks making the choice just as agonizing as before.

  • Meinwork: Excellent. Special permanent bonuses to HRE awesome infantry is great reason to build it. Really, you don’t need the Aachen, even if farming. You can just have 3 monks standing next to 3 mills and get the same effect. Plus, when there are fish I always build the Meinwork.

  • Kremlin: Great concept, except really should extend militia to longer than 90s, such as 2-4 minutes? They are still going to disappear, so it is not a massive army or anything. But an feudal attack on your capital can easily last longer than 90s, and you are only getting 6 guys who are not free. The 4 minutes would make sure you are safe, assuming the militia does not die. Speaking of which, I could not confirm, but if they do die, you should be able to generate another 6 guys.

  • Abbasid: Amazing and popular but some feedback:
    (a) For the military upgrades, it would be more persuasive if the 3 units it produces are from a future age (to make it more special). For example, if you use it first to go to feudal, you get 2 MMA instead of the pikemen, and 3 hand cannoneers going to castle.
    (b) But at least make them part of the new age. Pikemen are from dark age. So the feudal units should be 1 horsemen and 2 archers (if your are going for the 240 resources).
    (c) I believe if you complete military as the fourth wing, you just get 3 cannoneers since you are in imperial technically. But the units should be more “post-imperial” or valuable since it will be later in the game. The 3 cannoneers would be fine if you used it as your third wing to age to imperial (720 resources), but if as your fourth wing, it should be 960 resources then, (which could be just 4 cannoneers at least). But even better would 1 culverin (which is only 40 resources more than the 960).

  • Kurulatai This is great. Some people are worried it is OP. Lugging this thing around is a ###### so it is not OP. Besides, nothing really changed but the radius boost. Again, it can’t move easily (and is identifyable by the enemy to destroy). The pain in the butt requirement of having the khan (who is always dead or missing-in-action) next to it, just means it doesn’t work most of the time. Whistling arrows stacking just keeps the khans value the same. It is great.

  • Rus Landmarks: Fantastic. Healing Rams is a great idea. Especially since you gave the upgraded rams to everyone else now.

Thanks for reading.

Might be nice to turn the 30% increase in trade income into a technology that can be researched in age 3

If kurulatai is packed, it can be activated by Khan. It is not required in the expanded state. would be more useful

Add back the non-cheating hardest a.i. I do not want to play against a.i that gets a massive econ boost, certainly do not wish to lose a non-cheating difficulty setting for it.

Yes, I agree with it…

A little OP, but if AoE 3 has cards that send you armies of more than 25 units I do not see why not…

Just in case these did not get logged, I have a collection of observations and opinions about some of the features in the PUP that I agreed with.

  • Walls: I will be the advocate for the defense lovers. Boo on the wall nerfs. Especially the 7 wood for palisades. Early aggression is good. But you would get more if you raised the cost of aging rather than weakening defenses so all we can have is pikemen fighting each other. All these wall haters are trying to play some other type of game. Walls and keeps are part of the game. Breaking them is part of the game. Just let these people turn off the walls and keeps in a different game mode.
    Worthy of a different thread is the option where some of us will acquiesce to the defense nerfs if you had upgrades to these walls in each age. 1250 for a palisade in imperial is pointless. Probably in feudal as well.

  • Fish: I am not sure why the deep sea fishing was nerfed. To reward farming? Fishing is fun and dangerous and should pay accordingly. The buff to the shore fishing by boats is good. Helps to double produce in dark age and not be punished by poor gathering rate of those boats. Was not sure why that was the case before, other than to encourage villager shore fishing.

  • Minimally minimal should not be a cheat but a Hotkey!

  • Elephants: All very good, but they still need at least nominal trample damage. HRE landsharks have area damage, but not war elephants? A unarmored naked swordsman has more “trample” damage than a 3 pop elephant?

  • Siege: Good, but again, if siege is buffed (again), then there should be an upgrade (or buff frankly) to defense for the siege to break. I noticed with the cheaper Ribauldequin and Artillery Shot a continuation of the the new paradigm (started by Great Bombard) of using siege more for anti-infantry than anti building. Because siege is probably not used because it is not NEEDED. Who needs siege weapons when you can take down a keep in 5 seconds with men with torches. If only the besiegers only knew that in the middle ages, they could have saved a lot of time not bothering to build siege at all. Just run up to the castle and hit it. Anyway, with weaker less common walls and keeps, siege becomes pointless. So I guess making it cheaper and used against infantry keeps it relevant.

  • Khan Signal Arrow This was a good and needed improvement.

Thank you for reading.