January PUP Feedback 2023

With 3 madrasas, each technology takes practically 1 minute and 34 seconds. please make your arguments with data

Nest of Bees already has the smallest effective range of the splash damage siege and doesn’t have a bonus vs ranged like Mangonel does. Why does it need to be nerfed?


Have you looked at any of the data? Like on aoe4 world for example. It’s usually pretty well balanced.

I don’t think any of the things you mentioned are unbalanced really. Although, it’s too soon to say what the post PUP patch balance will look like.

I’m just like you, man

Landmark Feedback: Just in case someone else did not mention some of these observations on the landmarks. Some of these comments are collected from other’s observations.

  • Chamber of Commerce: boooo. I would take the old one anyday over the school of cavalry, but never the new one. A mix of the two would be fine, but not zero percent.
  • House of Learning: Definitely an improvement with fun techs. However, still a hard sell against the awesome benefits of the compound of the defender.
    (a) I always liked Tranquil Venue (and especially Medical Centers). But Tranquil Venue is only “out of combat” compared with Medical Centers. This matters. One idea, is a variation on what you did for monks in general. The old Tranquil Venue was 1hp/s, now 2. You could have it heal 1hp/s (like medical centers) during combat and 2hp/s out of combat!
    (b) The garrison range for lookout towers is great. (if you could boost damage like with the wooden fortress +1 that would be an even better sell).
    (c) Also new offensive The Compound of Defender is very powerful but good for defensive situation. This HoL is a hodge podge. I recommend 1 or 2 more offensive techs to go with the special +3 blade. e.g. this is one good place to put in more of the cut campaign techs in such as: Crannequins (for elephant x-bows +2) or Silk Bow strings for all archers +2.
    (d) 1 more tech that would not be OP is if there was something that effected monks (scholars), similiar to the special benefits Rus and HRE get, that would complement them with elephants. Either more health, or put some of their special techs from monastery into the HoL.
    [Side Note: Now that you have a tech for houses to fire arrows, please consider reworking Chinese Villages which are terrible to garrison in. Can they at least throw rocks?]
  • King’s Abbey: Guess, what. I always built the Abbey of Memes so I like it even more now. But it could be a little more useful without buffing the king.
    (a) The campaign shows it with the ability to hold a relic! You could make it like a Pagoda. This would be an awesome incentive to build it. You could give it x3 resources reasonably (becauce it would only hold 1 relic, unlike HRE or the 3 pagodas). Or just x2 because you do get the king and healing effect of course. It is a religious building after all when you click on it.
    (b) Consider this please. An upgrade tech in the Abbey in Castle that switches the healing to while in combat for the building, and maybe in Imperial a second tech level that applies this to the King. This would be awesome but not too OP, like I assume it would be in feudal. Would be fun.

Abbey of Kings Relic 1 - Copy

  • Berkshire: Very good with the 15 range accross the board and garrison arrow damage specifically. Would be nice if it could have a second cannon, which no one has.

  • Wynguard: Concept is awesome. However, I think the actual units need a lot of work.
    (a) The Treb Army is still awesome because it is a such a deal, and you improved it perfectly by making the units complement it instead of being a hodge podge. The pikemen defend the treb, etc.
    (b) But the footmen and rangers are pretty expensive for basically MMA and longbowmen. Especially since you only get 6 at time. The rangers, like bowmen, you would want to have dozens in imperial. Same with the footmen. Perhaps make them even more expensive but you get a batch of 12 or 20! unless that is too nuts.
    (c) The Raiders are boring and expensive. Some people may like it, but I speak for a certain minority that don’t really appreciate the faster production time (of a regular unit). I will just build more stables. Especially in imperial!? My argument against the council hall for the past year, was it is only saving you 300 wood (2 archery ranges) or basically vill time of 7min. But this matters in feudal where seconds count. But in imperial I have no use for this.

  • Khaganate and Sultan: These are pretty awesome buildings. However, they still suffer from the pop limit problem where your free resources are wasted if you are pop limited for too long. Unlike the Wynguard, where they are just queued up. More of a problem for the Sultan building since it eats up an additional 4 wasted pop limit because you have to put scholars in the building to speed it up. One other suggestion for the Sultan building, is to have it put out a mix like the Khaganate and Wynguard, perhaps the Cannoneer elephant and 2 scholars, etc…

  • Red Palace & College of Artillery: Amazing and perfect. Frankly, some of these changes are buffs to both landmarks making the choice just as agonizing as before.

  • Meinwork: Excellent. Special permanent bonuses to HRE awesome infantry is great reason to build it. Really, you don’t need the Aachen, even if farming. You can just have 3 monks standing next to 3 mills and get the same effect. Plus, when there are fish I always build the Meinwork.

  • Kremlin: Great concept, except really should extend militia to longer than 90s, such as 2-4 minutes? They are still going to disappear, so it is not a massive army or anything. But an feudal attack on your capital can easily last longer than 90s, and you are only getting 6 guys who are not free. The 4 minutes would make sure you are safe, assuming the militia does not die. Speaking of which, I could not confirm, but if they do die, you should be able to generate another 6 guys.

  • Abbasid: Amazing and popular but some feedback:
    (a) For the military upgrades, it would be more persuasive if the 3 units it produces are from a future age (to make it more special). For example, if you use it first to go to feudal, you get 2 MMA instead of the pikemen, and 3 hand cannoneers going to castle.
    (b) But at least make them part of the new age. Pikemen are from dark age. So the feudal units should be 1 horsemen and 2 archers (if your are going for the 240 resources).
    (c) I believe if you complete military as the fourth wing, you just get 3 cannoneers since you are in imperial technically. But the units should be more “post-imperial” or valuable since it will be later in the game. The 3 cannoneers would be fine if you used it as your third wing to age to imperial (720 resources), but if as your fourth wing, it should be 960 resources then, (which could be just 4 cannoneers at least). But even better would 1 culverin (which is only 40 resources more than the 960).

  • Kurulatai This is great. Some people are worried it is OP. Lugging this thing around is a ###### so it is not OP. Besides, nothing really changed but the radius boost. Again, it can’t move easily (and is identifyable by the enemy to destroy). The pain in the butt requirement of having the khan (who is always dead or missing-in-action) next to it, just means it doesn’t work most of the time. Whistling arrows stacking just keeps the khans value the same. It is great.

  • Rus Landmarks: Fantastic. Healing Rams is a great idea. Especially since you gave the upgraded rams to everyone else now.

Thanks for reading.

Might be nice to turn the 30% increase in trade income into a technology that can be researched in age 3

If kurulatai is packed, it can be activated by Khan. It is not required in the expanded state. would be more useful

Add back the non-cheating hardest a.i. I do not want to play against a.i that gets a massive econ boost, certainly do not wish to lose a non-cheating difficulty setting for it.

Yes, I agree with it…

A little OP, but if AoE 3 has cards that send you armies of more than 25 units I do not see why not…

Just in case these did not get logged, I have a collection of observations and opinions about some of the features in the PUP that I agreed with.

  • Walls: I will be the advocate for the defense lovers. Boo on the wall nerfs. Especially the 7 wood for palisades. Early aggression is good. But you would get more if you raised the cost of aging rather than weakening defenses so all we can have is pikemen fighting each other. All these wall haters are trying to play some other type of game. Walls and keeps are part of the game. Breaking them is part of the game. Just let these people turn off the walls and keeps in a different game mode.
    Worthy of a different thread is the option where some of us will acquiesce to the defense nerfs if you had upgrades to these walls in each age. 1250 for a palisade in imperial is pointless. Probably in feudal as well.

  • Fish: I am not sure why the deep sea fishing was nerfed. To reward farming? Fishing is fun and dangerous and should pay accordingly. The buff to the shore fishing by boats is good. Helps to double produce in dark age and not be punished by poor gathering rate of those boats. Was not sure why that was the case before, other than to encourage villager shore fishing.

  • Minimally minimal should not be a cheat but a Hotkey!

  • Elephants: All very good, but they still need at least nominal trample damage. HRE landsharks have area damage, but not war elephants? A unarmored naked swordsman has more “trample” damage than a 3 pop elephant?

  • Siege: Good, but again, if siege is buffed (again), then there should be an upgrade (or buff frankly) to defense for the siege to break. I noticed with the cheaper Ribauldequin and Artillery Shot a continuation of the the new paradigm (started by Great Bombard) of using siege more for anti-infantry than anti building. Because siege is probably not used because it is not NEEDED. Who needs siege weapons when you can take down a keep in 5 seconds with men with torches. If only the besiegers only knew that in the middle ages, they could have saved a lot of time not bothering to build siege at all. Just run up to the castle and hit it. Anyway, with weaker less common walls and keeps, siege becomes pointless. So I guess making it cheaper and used against infantry keeps it relevant.

  • Khan Signal Arrow This was a good and needed improvement.

Thank you for reading.

The changes in the walls are slight that do not affect the games of average elo of the majority
Those of us who make proposals attach data and evidence, you only express your own personal taste

Not trying to start a fight, but what is data backed reasoning behind nerfing walls and palisades? Genuinely curious as I happen to be on the for-wall side of the wall argument

Delhi House of learning needs only 3 techs.

  1. Honed blades “+2 melee” to ALL melee units (why there is such a critical tech that does NOT influence Elephants? The civ that should be centered around them?)

  2. +5 resource carrying capacity

  3. NEW TECH: (name it something cool and appropriate) when researched it works as built in efficient production. :boom: BOOM!! adjust speed as necessary. However the research time for this tech HAS to be very fast or it defeats the point (20-30s).

Benefits: all your veteran upgrades and elite upgrades become considerably faster. Your production effectively twice as cheap BEFORE housing a scholar (with a DOF scholar you get 4 times the standard production for the cost of 150w+90g).

This would give Delhi an exceptionally oppressive push time with hone blades and this new tech of build in efficient production. With the small eco buff to round the landmarl off.

My opinion is data. It is a data point of 1. :wink:
From which I am extrapolating an estimate of agreement ranging approximately from 3% ~ 49%, with possible deviations beyond that!
I trust the Devs to take all their collected data points into account.

  • Do you agree sharing one’s opinion in a reply to a post asking specifically for feedback is appropriate?

0 voters

  • Do you consider conducting unpaid data collection for Relic boring and that Relic probably knows what they are doing and can assemble their own data from forum feedback?

0 voters

In fact, e.g. I have a data set of 6 other colleagues to whom I mentioned, that in the forums there was an opinion that walls and keeps were too strong. I know, amazing, can you believe it? (I also conceded that it appears data shows this opinion was popular, and furthermore that the Devs apparently agreed. So congratulations.). But all 6 of these colleagues were aghast. (Worth noting all 6 and I first played AoE back in the 1900’s so we are not millennials watching twitch for what it is worth.)

Therefore the Devs should be alerted to the statistical fact that the opinion “walls are OP” ≠ 100%.

Thank you for contemplating my data.

Some of the proposals that I have supported have been taken into account and many have not. Sometimes I give drastic or exaggerated ideas to give visibility, but I know that developers take the middle ground.

Here, the fragment, listen to the opinion about the walls

yeah that’s true and professional scout gold price is to much no one used
no one use this anymore

1 Like

Yep you are right!
Should be cheaper!

Can you fix the STUPID cheating AI devs??? would be epic!!! The cheating AI SUCKS

IMO pro scout should NOT be cheaper as it would be too strong for Rus and Malians. However i would like if it was moved to dark age!! This move would absolutely buff Rus but bc its not cheap Rus could not easily tech this and do what they already do well. Secondly moving this tech to dark age would be a Delhi buff. Normally delhi can get pro scouts by the 8min+ mark, which isn’t horrible given that delhi would be on their 2nd berries and or sheep by then; and that’s assuming delhi went for pro scout research as its first feudal mill tech. A dark age tech would require a 2nd mill but that 4min research time could have selhi scouts picking up carcasses at 5 to 6 mins?!