Many noobs believe that Japan is OP, which was true 10 years ago. However, Japan has been nerfed to death since. The main problem is that although Japan units are relatively strong, they are also very expensive, more expensive than they are strong. This, combined with the fact that Japan has the weakest early eco in the game (no hunting), and with the fact that they have the weakest shipments in the game (e.g., 2 vills in age 1 instead of 3, etc.), make it unplayable competitively.
At age 2 in particular, other civs can create an army and age up to age 3 pretty quickly, while Japan has the choice between aging up but not having an army, and thus get destroyed, or creating an army but not aging up, and thus get destroyed as soon as the opponent goes to age 3 and get a couple of artillery pieces. So either it ages up and gets destroyed, or it creates an army and gets destroyed. The same two scenarios happen at every competitive games involving Japan, with pro players and on the ladder below rank ~1300.
In addition, Japan cannot defend against rushes happening before ~6:30 minutes, regardless of players’ skill.
The only way for the Japan player to win is to be much more skillful than the opponent. At equivalent skill, Japan has no chance. It is a shame since Japan is an interesting civ in terms of unit design and play style.
The slow early economy because of no hunts make them unraidable. It also gives them near 100% efficiency as they don’t have to walk but a few places. The shrines autogenerate resources and give map control as they can cover any approach. This along with two heros and a cart for exploring and scouting. The triple scout gets more herdables and these can scout as well.
Don’t get me started. They are weaker than China but just as ridiculous.
I think japan needs its own little rework, so that it has more choices in the early game.
Why raid it when you can outscale it? The game has changed a lot in the past few months, and Japan has simply been left out of the meta.
They don’t give map control. They provide line of sight at most. Map control is being able to control said map, shrines don’t do that anymore than other houses do.
What triple scout?
Nah, china is through the roof from start to finish. Japan has quite a few windows of opportunity to lose.
Personally, I’d like to see some utility improvement when it comes to food/early game questions, like a fairly big increase of range in which Shrines attract wild animals. Especially in treaty modes sometimes animal spawning can be quite annoying.
Well, I think it would be best to apply a buff to the livepens offered by the Dutch consulate, and give you more sheep or maybe cows too. You should only increase the export cost.
Japan does not need buff, the noobs players will say that Japan cannot defend itself against a rush, obviously it is not easy but it is not a match that you are sure to lose either, the civ alone has too many for many things for keep giving him to defend himself on top, the other thing is that Japan at age 4 is too strong unlike other civs, its economy grows exponentially and cheapens its troops, besides having a daimyo, it can take out a batch of 20 ashigaru with comfort to do so in the same daimyo that they give you in the old pass, if you want something good for japom start by correcting the crap of the spanish consulate, increasing + 0.1 the gold drip of the dutch consulate
Nah, actually their muskets are still kinda OP. They are the fastest, so is difficult to catch them with other regular infantry. Plus the houses are still OP, Japan is the only civ having factories at age 2. And being that cheap to replace is hard to get rid of all.
Explorers that can teleport, being able to receive shipments and create units anywhere on the map [shogun] also age 2… should I continue?
You pay a lot more food and gold for a bit of speed and hp, that is terrible value. It would be OP if the cost was the same as other musks, not when you pay almost double the price (on top of the weakest early eco in the game) for 0.25-0.5 additional speed. That makes them under-powered.
With all due respect (it’s just a game), the argument of the factories at age 2 is the typical noob argument. Shrines cost 2500 wood in total or ~1900 wood + 1 shipment and trickle a lot fewer resources than the 2 shipment factories that Japan does not benefit from. They are incredibly easy to get rid of as, by definition, they have to be placed all over the map just for Japan to not fall too far behind in its economy. Shrines are actually the biggest disadvantage of Japan IMO (and no hunting) as they are extremely expensive and time-consuming for Japan, but basically free xp for the opponent. It costs the opponent five pikes to destroy half Japan’s economy. And yes, you can decrease further the total cost of the shrines by combining shipment + Portuguese consulate + Toshogu Shrine, but at the cost of sacrificing early military power which is necessary for defending against early aggression.
lol. Explorers are funny but they have to spend all their time building these damn shrines while the other civs explorers can get treasures instead. Oh and they need the teleportation thing because otherwise they would get destroyed every time they encounter the opponent’s explorer since they are so slow and fragile. So I’m happy to exchange the “poof” ability for a more decent attack and hp.
Shogun is difficult to deal with for noobs, but it’s a troll shipment at higher levels. Give japan the same food gathering rate as any other civs and I’m happy to give the funny Shogun back in exchange.
You can play it safe with shrines but even then the advantage of being constructed by a monk can’t be underestimated you’re not wasting villager harvest time.
Also they can have the Aztec Bounty aura without the possibility of the War Chief being snipped.
Not to say its OP but that is what its used for if you either have 2 or already have a berry bush, its better sometimes just to have a unit slowly discovering the map for you if you know the opponent isnt going to find it cause they are otto which will be building TPs . Its also useful on livestock maps where you already know roughly where they will spawn so you can just have them scoure the area for them.
China also scouts using the starting goat if you arent in a rush to fatten it and if you are going for TP build meaning the monk isnt scouting at the start
edit: for perspective herdable scouting is basically a standard move in aoe 2, so it isnt crazy that its a thing in aoe 3
RELATIVELY strong?!? Any other civ would LOVE to get even one unit as good as any of Japan’s units. Please compare any Japan unit to a comparable unit of a normal civ. Japan disgusts me honestly (talking about the civ here, not the OP), I would like for it to be nerfed so that it is weaker than the current weakest civ, Portugal. In my opinion it turns players into unskillful players because they aren’t doing anything you are supposed to do in RTS games.
I still see Japan turn up plenty during ranked, which means that there are lots of other civs players feel it is stronger then, that I almost never see. Go ahead and fire up the scenario editor and test Japan’s units on a cost adjusted number/basis versus other civ’s units.
Almost double the price? What the hell are you smoking?? It cost 5 food and 15 coin more than a normal musk!! And it get 20 mre hp, 1 more ranged damage and 0.5 more speed!!! It is in fact underpriced for what it bring
Why are you playing Japanese btw ? If I belive you:
the units (esp muskets) are not cost efficient
the shrines are a disadvantage compared to the eco of other civs
You would gladly trade the japanese explorers against european or american explorers
You cannot defend rushes that you often encounter.
So what part of the civ is appealing to you ? Only the architecture and the voices ? You should rather play some european civs instead, no ?
Until now I never saw anyone put Japan as a botton civ in their tierlist. I thought people love japan in treaty.
If they were like the 5th worst civ in supremacy, this sounds fine to me, someone has to be at the bottom. Just let other player play Japan and laught at the below 5% win rate of japan in tournaments if they are really that bad.