I have been testing these units out in the pup and they are way too strong for their costs. they cost the same as jans and skirms yet beat them 1v1 despite being counter units, something no other 1 pop ranged cav comes close to doing aside from the much more expensive eagle runner knights. they also demolish crossbowmen and musketeers.
they are cheaper than zamburaks yet win with over half their hp. otto abus guns beat them with only 18/10 hp left despite costing twice the pop and much more resources meaning ottomans have no cost effective counter against them. every even pop/resource trade you take as ottomans against javelin riders is one your losing more resources than the opponent.
its like an eagle runner knight in age 2 that is also good against artillery, you force trades when you want with your speed against infantry masses and cost effectively beat them when you do.
lower their hitpoints and switch them to melee resistance so they are dedicated counter cavalry units rather than being cost efficient generalists.
EDIT: some more testing results
they are on a whole other level compared to any unit aside from eagle runners. 20 javelin riders will take out 23 musketeers, an equal resource amount, with 7-8 nearly full health javelin riders. they are very cost effective vs their counters. 20 javelin riders also beat 20 skirms and 20 jans with roughly 8 surviving, again equal resources and supposed counters.
20 javelins vs 16 abus is painful to see, with roughly 12 javelin riders surviving despite being 100 resources and 12! population slots cheaper and being against their counter. rip ottomans vs the African civs.
no other unit 1 pop or otherwise is as cost effective as them with only eagle runners performing similarly. 18 musketeers will demolish 10 bow riders and 10 dragoons, its not even close, yet equal resource amounts vs javelin riders they are instead destroyed.
javelin riders could lose 60 hp and still be more cost effective generalists than dragoons, bow riders and zamburaks/ruyters. its massively over tuned compared to its peers with 75% more hp and 33% more damage output compared to zamburaks despite being 5 resources cheaper.
14 Likes
I think the ideal nerf would be an attack decrease in exchange for an increase dmg to cav so that it makes it as if it does the same dmg to cav it currently does while still doing less to everything else.
2 Likes
this is a good assessment. they do a lot of damage per pop and per cost with no real downsides (such as erks taking 2x from skirms instead of 1.5x to other goons and no arty multi, etc.)
2 Likes
I think it’s a little too early to be calling for nerfs, the devs have surely been watching all the gameplay and if there’s a nerf needed they will make a change.
1v1 its not worth comparing to other units because cost isn’t taken into account.
comparing a straight fight with abus isn’t right either because abus should always be kiting and otherwise melt to everything with their low hp, they’re a 2 pop 150 res unit that get 2 shot by a tc.
Zamburaks have never been a stand and fight unit, they’re fast yet fragile and are made to hit and run and catch hand cav, not to fight standing still vs another dragoon, they’d lose to any dragoon as well.
Ottomans are also notoriously weak to mass dragoons, due to their immobile army and lack of a traditional skirm.
Changing the resist to melee is a really bad idea and will make them a trash tier dragoon, maybe they need a slight tweak to hp or attack so it’s in line with their cost, i’m sure the devs will look at the unit and make the necessary changes.
1 Like
nope, they’re definitely too strong rn, I’m able to beat nearly anything with just javelin cav and a shotel shipment. holy hanna these guys need to be 2 pop lol
8 Likes
the whole op was about cost effectiveness, saying that it doesn’t take cost effectiveness into account means you did not read.
they are on a whole other level compared to any unit aside from eagle runners. 20 javelin riders will take out 23 musketeers, an equal resource amount, with 7-8 nearly full health javelin riders. they are very cost effective vs their counters. 20 javelin riders also beat 20 skirms and 20 jans with roughly 8 surviving, again equal resources and supposed counters.
20 javelins vs 16 abus is painful to see, with roughly 12 javelin riders surviving despite being 100 resources and 12! population slots cheaper and being against their counter. rip ottomans vs the African civs.
no other unit 1 pop or otherwise is as cost effective as them with only eagle runners performing similarly. 18 musketeers will demolish 10 bow riders and 10 dragoons, its not even close, yet equal resource amounts vs javelin riders they are instead destroyed.
javelin riders could lose 60 hp and still be more cost effective generalists than dragoons, bow riders and zamburaks/ruyters. its massively over tuned compared to its peers with 75% more hp and 33% more damage output compared to zamburaks despite being 5 resources cheaper.
1 Like
javelin riders is incredibly strong, Hausa only needs to train javelin riders and autowin lol.
3 Likes
Balance idea:
Change resistance to melee
Change ranged attack speed to 3 but increase the damage by 50% (effectively -25% DPS). Maybe increase the wind up animation to make kiting less efficient.
This way they are weaker against their counter but still useful against Heavy Cavalry.
Their speciality should be being strong in melee in the first place.
This way you can still fight Skirmishers but you have to go into melee mode.
Eh? I found Javelen riders about as amazing as carbine cavalry [/sarcasm]
10% range resist with a wind up animation.
Really they’re not that good, they’re slow for dragoon units, frail and their damage output is bad, but they’re good at killing cav and only killing cav unlike carbine cav which is equally good at everything.
I’m all for waiting out, but in this case, the stats are just way too good. Even if a counter was found, that unit overshadows all its roster, it’s like caroleans. So a nerf for diversity sake is needed.
1 Like
their damage output is bad? huh? they do 10 damage every 1.5 seconds for a 1 pop cheap unit, while still being tanks. If these were 2 pop it would be different, but they’re not, you can mass tons of them
3 Likes
I agree. Depending on civ you don’t even need the shock infantry. Javelins win fights they shouldn’t, especially against skirmishers and muskets. They do fairly well at tanking pikemen as well, which is insane.
1 Like
They are somewhere between an erk and a ruyter, and definitely very strong. I think keeping a small shotel mass is pretty good for snaring and tanking, when full mobility is needed, and of course Neftanya are also more population efficient than euro skirms, so that’s another factor to consider
3 Likes
Yeah, I think they need a price increase.
They would be fine if the price was 70f 60g, or even keep the price but increase the pop space to 2.
I fully agree these units are too strong, especially as this cheap dragoon unit has a much hhigher base meelee and multipliers than the veteran dragoon
2 Likes
You can put a bunch of them in melee to act as snare.
2 Likes
Let’s make a comparison:
Javelin Rider vs Ruyter
Food cost:
65 vs 30
Coin cost:
50 vs 75
Overall cost:
115 vs 105
Hitpoints:
210 vs 140
Range Resists:
10% vs 10%
Speed:
6.5 vs 7.5
Damage:
10 vs 14
DPS:
6.7 vs 4.7
The Ruyter is definitely better at hit and run. The 1.5 seconds reloading time doesn’t matter as much when you shoot once anyway and the 7.5 compared to 6.5 speed helps too.
The Javelin Rider are better at melee though and the higher HP make them quit tanky.
I don’t think the Javelin Riders are totally overpowered. Changing their resit to melee would make them weaker against their counter (Skirmishers and Archers) but put even more emphasis on their melee strength.
Maybe even increase the resistance but reduce their HP so they are equally strong in melee as before but weaker against range.
1 Like
a 2nd problem with jav cav is that the civs have full roster of other strong units and native/consulate shipments to perfectly compliment the jav cav rider
1 Like
A few things about this comparison.
Ruyter was considered by many the best dragoon unit in the game in cost-efficiency and even then get overshadowed by the Javelin Riders
Ruyter is an Age3 unit, Javelin Riders are an Age2 unit.
Ruyter is way worse on melee, making them less flexible.
The overall cost is calculated wrong it should consider the villager seconds(VS) cost not the sum of resources since gold and food are gathered at different rates, in this case, the Javelin Rider costs 161VS and the Ruyter costs 161VS as well, so ruyters have the same cost for way less efficiency and accessibility.
Javelin Rider is the new king of dragoon-type units.
5 Likes
Probably best nerf is to move them to age3.
2 Likes