[Just for fun] Unique bonuses for hypothetical new civs

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
1218

You know how heavily the skirmishers are used in the Feudal age, right? The 100 food would still worth paying for the double effect immediately after the Fletching as it is even cheaper than 2 skirmishers. Not to mention there absolutely would be other units like spears, archers or scouts and not make them alone. The archers usually have the armors late but here they would have soon, and here the scouts only could deal 3 damage per attack to the archers (as the melee upgrade also gets researched pretty late usually) while it’s 5 originally. The additional armor for the skirmishers (and archers of course) would bring a snowball.

Not just well but very well. After the Bodkin Arrow, the second archer armor would become worth researching as soon as possible too. The crossbowmen with this bonus would have as much armor as the knights with the second cavalry armor. It’s like the archers receive -2 damage from any units and buildings (but it feels more like -3 since the second archer armor usually gets researched late for most of civs). For comparison, the Persian bonus that Knights have +2 attack against archers is considered a pretty good bonus, and the double armor for archers is equivalent to canceling out a power greater than this bonus. Even the skirmishers could still have a trade with them, the -2 damage still make the thing different.

Exactly the infantry are not only slow and but also have no range so that they can have double effect armor in the early game.

Different modes can look different. Maybe they could be propped up and aim higher in this mode.

1219

I don’t think so. Feudal is same as Vietnamese. Imperial is almost generic. Only in Castle against some units it will be strong.

I literally wrote “Archer line”.

1 Like
1220

Oh I didn’t notice. That’s my mistake.

In the Feudal Age:

  1. As usually the first archer armor and first melee upgrade are researched pretty late (probably about when clicking the Castle age or even later):
    36 HP (with Vietnamese bonus) / 5 (damage from scout) = 7.2 strikes ≈ 8 strikes
    36 HP (with Vietnamese bonus) / 6 (damage from Magyar scout) = 6 strikes
    36 HP (with Vietnamese bonus) / 5 (damage from archer with fletching) = 7.2 strikes ≈ 8 strikes

  2. If the Vienamese try to have the first archer armor earlier (while it seldom happens).
    36 HP (with Vietnamese bonus) / 4 (damage from scout) = 9 strikes
    36 HP (with Vietnamese bonus) / 5 (damage from Magyar scout) = 7.2 strikes ≈ 8 strikes
    36 HP (with Vietnamese bonus) / 4 (damage from archer with fletching) = 9 strikes

  3. As the first melee upgrade is still late but this bonus would encourage people research the first armor as soon as possible:
    30 HP / 3 (damage from scout) = 10 strikes
    30 HP / 4 (damage from Magyar scout) = 7.5 strikes ≈ 8 strikes
    30 HP / 3 (damage from archer with fletching) = 10 strikes

  4. Generic archers:
    30 HP / 5 (damage from scout) = 6 strikes
    30 HP / 6 (damage from Magyar scout) = 5 strikes
    30 HP / 5 (damage from archer with fletching) = 6 strikes

  5. For reference, the Koreans case (generic archers with the first armor):
    30 HP / 4 (damage from scout) = 7.5 strikes ≈ 8 strikes
    30 HP / 5 (damage from Magyar scout) = 6 strikes
    30 HP / 4 (damage from archer with fletching) = 7.5 strikes ≈ 8 strikes

In the Castle Age, after researching the first archer armor and first melee upgrade:

  1. As usually the second archer armor and second melee upgrade are researched even later (probably about when clicking or even hitting the Imperial age):
    42 HP (with Vietnamese bonus) / 10 (damage from knight) = 4.2 strikes ≈ 5 strikes
    42 HP (with Vietnamese bonus) / 11 (damage from Magyar knight) = 3.8181 strikes ≈ 4 strikes
    42 HP (with Vietnamese bonus) / 6 (damage from crossbow with bodkin) = 7 strikes

  2. If the Vietnamese try to have the second archer armor earlier (while it seldom happens).
    42 HP (with Vietnamese bonus) / 9 (damage from knight) = 4.6666 strikes ≈ 5 strikes
    42 HP (with Vietnamese bonus) / 10 (damage from Magyar knight) = 4.2 strikes ≈ 5 strikes
    42 HP (with Vietnamese bonus) / 5 (damage from crossbow with bodkin) = 8.4 strikes ≈ 9 strikes

  3. As the second melee upgrade is still late but this bonus would encourage people research the second armor as soon as possible:
    35 HP / 7 (damage from knight) = 5 strikes
    35 HP / 8 (damage from Magyar knight) = 4.375 strikes ≈ 5 strikes
    35 HP / 3 (damage from crossbow with bodkin) = 11.6666 strikes ≈ 12 strikes

  4. Generic crossbows:
    35 HP / 10 (damage from knight) = 3.5 strikes ≈ 4 strikes
    35 HP / 11 (damage from Magyar knight) = 3.1818 strikes ≈ 4 strikes
    35 HP / 6 (damage from crossbow with bodkin) = 5.8333 strikes ≈ 6 strikes

  5. The Koreans case (generic crossbows with the second armor):
    35 HP / 9 (damage from knight) = 3.8888 strikes ≈ 4 strikes
    35 HP / 10 (damage from Magyar knight) = 3.5 strikes ≈ 4 strikes
    35 HP / 5 (damage from crossbow with bodkin) = 7 strikes

[Edited] I accidentally remembered the HP wrong. It’s correct now.

Judging from the above calculations, it’s still more powerful all around than Vietnamese HP bonus, even if the Vietnamese (sacrifice the economy in order to) get the armor just as early as you. Not to mention that it is definitely a trouble when crossbow vs crossbow. 12 strikes is an incredible number.

1221

Want archer bonuses featuring more armor?

  • Archery Range unit upgrades provide +1 melee armor for the units.
  • Gambesons affects Archery Range units.
  • Parthian Tactics affects foot archer units (without Bracer and maybe Thumb Ring too).
1222

Can you do skirmisher too? From the calculation other than xbow vs xbow, I don’'t think anything is broken. They may also lose Thumb Ring to minimize the xbow vs xbow gap. With little to no eco bonus on the civ, this bonus will be fine.

1223

Even just the Crossbowmen battle is enough to be a problem.
The stats of Vietnamese Archers with armors are already very strong so I worry that might be the edge of acceptability.

Thumb Ring usually comes in the middle or late Castle age and before that the things might be already done. Maybe the gap can be minimized but in the Imperial they would be bad and you need another method to keep their power if you still want to feature the archers as the identity of the civ.

Maybe an UT but it’s just a slot that can be used for improve other aspects but get occupied. Or it’s an unique upgrade to the Crossbowman like how Romans do to the Long swordsman, but it might be easy to make the Archer line have no weak period.

You also might have to remove eco bonuses and maybe other early military bonuses for this bonus, then this civ could be hard to maintain the balance, such like it might just either overwhelm the opponent or be overwhelmed by the opponent. In my opinion this situation is also a kind of being broken.

The skirmishers take the same damage as archers when facing melee units.
And the calculations in facing ranged attacks are not worth mentioning.
I think the point is that the difference of 2-4 strikes between the generic feudal skirmishers and the skirmishers with this bonus might surprisingly bring difference as the skirmishers are used so heavily. There is still 1 strike between the Vietnamese skirmishers with armor and the skirmishers with this bonus, and as I stated I worry the Vietnamese stats are the edge of acceptability.

I am not sure what the calculations will be in the case of CAs, by the way.

Summary

In the Feudal Age:

  1. As usually the first archer armor and first melee upgrade are researched pretty late (probably about when clicking the Castle age or even later):
    36 HP (with Vietnamese bonus) / 2 (damage from archer with fletching) = 18 strikes
    36 HP (with Vietnamese bonus) / 4 (damage from skirmisher with fletching) = 9 strikes

  2. If the Vienamese try to have the first archer armor earlier (while it seldom happens).
    36 HP (with Vietnamese bonus) / 1 (damage from archer with fletching) = 36 strikes
    36 HP (with Vietnamese bonus) / 4 (damage from skirmisher with fletching) = 9 strikes

  3. As the first melee upgrade is still late but this bonus would encourage people research the first armor as soon as possible:
    30 HP / 1 (damage from archer with fletching) = 30 strikes
    30 HP / 4 (damage from skirmisher with fletching) = 7.5 strikes ≈ 8 strikes

  4. Generic skirmishers:
    30 HP / 2 (damage from archer with fletching) = 15 strikes
    30 HP / 4 (damage from skirmisher with fletching) = 7.5 strikes ≈ 8 strikes

  5. For reference, the Koreans case (generic skirmishers with the first armor):
    30 HP / 1 (damage from archer with fletching) = 30 strikes
    30 HP / 4 (damage from skirmisher with fletching) = 7.5 strikes ≈ 8 strikes

In the Castle Age, after researching the first archer armor and first melee upgrade:

  1. As usually the second archer armor and second melee upgrade are researched even later (probably about when clicking or even hitting the Imperial age):
    42 HP (with Vietnamese bonus) / 2 (damage from crossbow with bodkin) = 21 strikes
    42 HP (with Vietnamese bonus) / 5 (damage from elite skirmisher with bodkin) = 10.5 strikes ≈ 11 strikes

  2. If the Vietnamese try to have the second archer armor earlier (while it seldom happens).
    42 HP (with Vietnamese bonus) / 1 (damage from crossbow with bodkin) = 42 strikes
    42 HP (with Vietnamese bonus) / 5 (damage from elite skirmisher with bodkin) = 10.5 strikes ≈ 11 strikes

  3. As the second melee upgrade is still late but this bonus would encourage people research the second armor as soon as possible:
    35 HP / 1 (damage from crossbow with bodkin) = 35 strikes
    35 HP / 5 (damage from elite skirmisher with bodkin) = 7 strikes

  4. Generic elite skirmishers:
    35 HP / 2 (damage from crossbow with bodkin) = 17.5 ≈ 18 strikes
    35 HP / 5 (damage from elite skirmisher with bodkin) = 7 strikes

  5. The Koreans case (generic elite skirmishers with the second armor):
    35 HP / 1 (damage from crossbow with bodkin) = 35 strikes
    35 HP / 5 (damage from elite skirmisher with bodkin) = 7 strikes

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1224

Here is the civ I had in my mind:

Start with +150 food.
Archer line gets double benefit from blacksmith armors.
Eagle Warrior moves 15% faster starting from Feudal Age.

Unique Techs
Skirmishers +2 attack. (200f,150w, 40 sec)
Eagle Warrior and Archer line gold cost -40%. (750f, 450g, 40 sec)

Team Bonus
Foot archer +2 LOS

UU
Foot archer with attack bonus vs archer
Cost - 40w, 40 gold
HP - 45, 50
Attack - 5, 6
Attack Bonus - +3, +4 vs archer, +2 vs Cav Archer
Armor - 0/1
Speed - 1.05
Training time - 14 sec
Upgrade cost & time - 750f,650g, 40 sec

Tech tree
Barracks - No Gambeson, Halb, Squires
Range - No TR, CA, EA, HC, PT
No stable
Siege Workshop - SR, BBC
Blacksmith - Blast Furnace, Ring archer armor, scale, chain, plate barding armor.
Monastery - Atonement, Redemption, Herbal Medicine, Block Printing
Dock - FFS, HD, CG
University - Architecture, Arrowslit, BBT
Eco - Last farm and gold upgrade

1225

First impression is that this is an extremely bad late game civilization. No Hussar, no Halberdier, no even fully upgraded Pikeman and Elite Skirmisher.
Arbalester, Elite Eagle, Monk and even Champion, which may be the main units, have no fully upgraded. At that time, you would be overly dependent on the castles, that is, the UU and unknown UT effects, and the UU seems to be just the twin brother of Rattan Archer.

However the strength of this civilization before the middle of the Castle Age is worrying. The faster Eagles are very effective in raiding, and the opponent’s Thumb Ring that is usually researched later is not sure to decently reduce the power of double armor.

The 150 food bonus can bring a fast archer rush in the Feudal, or can go fast Castle, which means that their power peak could be earlier. But this bonus is the old Lithuanian bonus that was abandoned, and I think it was abandoned because it was considered too strong. Even though the civilization does not have cavalry, it still does not guarantee safety.

IMHO this seems to me to be exactly the kind of civilization that overwhelms its opponents or is overpowered by its opponents. It would overwhelm archers early on and would become increasingly difficult to defend against cavalry over time. Maybe it would be a lot better if the bonuses were that the archers moved faster and the eagles got double the armor, although I’m not sure that either.

1 Like
1226

Eagle Warrior benefits from Gambeson.

1227

These two I didn’t notice before. Now I think about them seriously.
The +2 attack for skirmishers is interesting. It does give a little help for the Elite skirmishers that have no Thumb Ring in the late game, even though the civ would still be bad at the time. However the civ is already very strong against archers with the Archer armor bonus and Eagle bonus in the Castle age, so they do not really need it at the time.
The Imperial one is hard to estimate. I think the cost reduction effect tends to amplify the jobs they’re already good at but has limited benefit to the jobs they’re not actually good at. So I think it would continue their strength against archers.

This civ might be very OP against the archer civs, but much weaker against the cavalry civs and others like the Goths. In short, personally it’d be easy to be broken.

I try to conceive another version of it with maintaining the emphasis it wanted to emphasize.

  • high speed eagles.
  • high armor archers.
  • few or weak economy bonus.

Civ Bonuses:

  • The Eagle line moves 10% faster starting from Feudal Age.
    (Has Blast Furnace and Squires but no Elite upgrade.)
  • The Archer line has +1 pierce armor. (Has Thumb Ring.)
  • The Gambesons also affects infantry units other than the Militia line.
  • Farms slowly hand over their food content to stockpile.

UT:

  • Infantry units have +50% bonus attacks. (No Halberdier.)
  • The 50 gold cost of the Eagle line get turned into 40 or 50 food cost.

The Eagles would be good at raiding, and the Archer line has a balanced advantage against archers.
The food bonus needs to wait until there are enough Farms for the effect to be obvious, which could help the late game that has normal fully upgraded Elite Skirmishers, high bonus Pikemen and Hussar-like trash faster Eagles.
The UU might better be kind of anti-cavalry unit, like a strong gold-needed spearman unit that can move fast. If it is a anti-archer unit, it would overlap the generic Archer line. Especially, if it is a anti-archer archer, the civ would be like Mesoamerican version of Vietnamese.
Hope you like it.

1228

I really like this old bonus. And the TB is also old Magyars TB.
The Lithuanians was strong because of their dock didn’t lack anything. If I forget, just remove fire ship line and the civ will be fine.

That was the intention.

I think I need to add halb.

1229

This civilization was unusually strong in one aspect and extremely weak in another.
Too powerful against archers but too weak against cavalry.
Too powerful on early land but too weak on water game and late game.

People generally don’t like a civilization that is either 0% or 100%.
Which people are this civ is based on? I would love to continue the concept of trash eagles mentioned above.

Probably. And you might need to do more on nerf the anti-archer capability of the Archer line than just removing Thumb Ring in the Castle age.

1230

Lithuanian bonus with old numbers?

1231

  • Villagers, Fishing Ships, and Transport Ships affected by Town Watch, Town Patrol

  • Town Watch, Town Patrol available one age earlier

1232

Yes. I like this bonus to be back. Either for them or another civ.

1233

Camel and Infantry Civ:

Civ Bonus:

  • (Heavy) Camel Riders +3/5 melee attack but -3/5 attack vs. Cavalry and Camel
  • Arson also affect (Heavy) Camel Rider

Tech Tree:

  • Have Champion, Squires, Arson, Supplies, Gambesons, Husbandry
  • Lack Halberdier, Bloodlines
  • Have full Blacksmith upgrade for Cavalry and Infantry
  • Have no access to Eagle Line since they have Stable

Unique Unit: (Elite) Eastern Swordsman

  • costs 40F15G, train time: 8
  • 50/60 HP, 9/12 attack, 2.0 attack reload time, 1/1 melee armor, 2/2 pierce armor, 1.0 speed
  • +4/8 vs. Cavalry, +2/4 vs. Camel
  • Basically a cheaper, faster, anti-Cavalry and less tech to upgrade Long Swordsman / Two-Handed Swordsman
  • Upgrade to Elite: costs 800F400G, research time: 45

Castle Age Unique Tech: Camel Riders turn into Eastern Swordsman when they die

  • costs 400F450G, research time: 45
  • Only if both Heavy Camel Rider and Elite Eastern Swordsman are researched, will Heavy Camel Riders turn into Elite Eastern Swordsman when they die
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1234

Team Bonus
Palisade walls +1/+1 armor.

Civ Bonus
Houses 2x HP.
Houses are built 100% faster.
Houses are 60% cheaper. (Proposed many times before).
Towers cost 60% less wood.

Unique Tech
Castle arrows pass through targets. (Preferably no Bracer).

2 Likes
1235
  • Destroyed Transport Ships near the shoreline deposit their passengers
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1236

I would hate to play the lepanto scenario with this.

4 Likes
1237

The point of pursuing the sinking of transport ships would be completely lost.

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