In the past few days I tried to work on Eagle alternatives for possible non-cavalry civs additions.
What Always irritated me with the Eagle is it’s absurdly low amount of counters. It looks to me that the only real counter available to every civ is the swordsman line. A unit that doesn’t see much use in the midgame cause over various reasons.
So I made 2 alternative versions for the eagles. One which is more specialised against archers but dies heavily against cavalry. One which is an anti-cavalry unit, but weaker against archery.
The first one, the Falcon Warrior that is anti-cavalry, also loses it’s bonus against monk conversions, as it is intended to be given to a civ that gets light cavalry at some stage of the game (castle age or imp). This could be given to a sout american expansion like the Chimu, reflecting the adaption of horsebreeding in the conquista.
The latter one, I called “Dayak” as superordinate for the malayo-polynesian civilisations, is very specialised against Archers and dies hard to heavy cavalry in the midgame. But these keep the utility against monks as these civs shouldn’t get light cav like the current mesos. As they are so easily counter by heavy cav I also needed to slightly increase their speed after the castle age upgrade. It’s possible they need even more speed buff there.
Both units are excellent raiding units, even better than the current eagles, as they have some low inherit melee armor aswell. This is an essential tweak to make them perform specifically good against light cavalry at all stages of the game. Enabling to make them a viable choice in feudal as a rush option and also in the lategame when gold becomes scarce.
I also tweaked the cost, so they need more food and less gold to produce. This is now viable as these now have more counters. With more counters in the lategame, they don’t need that high gold cost as more civs have a tool against them. This increase in food cost makes it easier to balance them in feudal as then it wouldn’t be possible anymore to sustain the production with low eco.
I also figured out a calculation method to check how melee units perform against each other in idealised settings which I used to tweak their stats until I got Results I was happy with. I also calced the same interactios with the current eagle Warrior. Cause it’s eaier to understand these interactions with an actual comparison with already existing units in the game.
Name
Falcon Scout (D)
Falcon Scout (F)
Falcon Scout (C)
Falcon Warrior
Elite Falcon Warrior
Armor Class
Infantry
Infantry
Infantry
Infantry
Infantry
Armor Class
Eagle Warrior
Eagle Warrior
Eagle Warrior
Eagle Warrior
Eagle Warrior
Produced at
Barracks
Barracks
Barracks
Barracks
Barracks
Production Time
-
40 s
30 s
25 s
18 s
Production Cost
45 F, 35 G
45 F, 35 G
45 F, 35 G
45 F, 35 G
45 F, 35 G
HP
50
50
50
55
60
Speed
1.1
1.1
1.1
1.15
1.3
ROF
2
2
2
2
2
Attack
4 Melee
4 Melee
7 Melee
7 Melee
9 Melee
Atk Bonus
3 vs Cavalry
5 vs Cavalry
9 vs Cavalry
12 vs Cavalry
Atk Bonus
2 vs Siege Weapon
3 vs Siege Weapon
3 vs Siege Weapon
4 vs Siege ######## vs Siege Weapon
Atk Bonus
2 vs Camels
2 vs Camels
4 vs Camels
6 vs Camels
Range
-
-
-
-
-
Accuracy
-
-
-
-
-
Melee Armor
0
1
1
2
2
Pierce Armor
2
2
2
2
2
Benefits from
Infantry Upgrades
Infantry Upgrades
Infantry Upgrades
Infantry Upgrades
Infantry Upgrades
Name
Dayak Scout (D)
Dayak Scout (F)
Dayak Scout (C)
Dayak Warriro
Elite Dayak Warrior
Armor Class
Infantry
Infantry
Infantry
Infantry
Infantry
Armor Class
Eagle Warrior
Eagle Warrior
Eagle Warrior
Eagle Warrior
Eagle Warrior
Produced at
Barracks
Barracks
Barracks
Barracks
Barracks
Production Time
-
40 s
35 s
30 s
20 s
Production Cost
45 F, 40 G
45 F, 40 G
45 F, 40 G
45 F, 40 G
45 F, 40 G
HP
36
36
45
50
65
Speed
1.1
1.1
1.1
1.2
1.3
ROF
1.85
1.85
1.85
1.85
1.85
Attack
4 Melee
4 Melee
6 Melee
7 Melee
8 Melee
Atk Bonus
8 vs Monks
8 vs Monks
8 vs Monks
8 vs Monks
10 vs Monks
Atk Bonus
3 vs Siege Weapon
3 vs Siege Weapon
3 vs Siege Weapon
3 vs Siege Weapon
4 vs Siege Weapon
Atk Bonus
5 vs Archers
Range
-
-
-
-
-
Accuracy
-
-
-
-
-
Melee Armor
1
2
3
3
3
Pierce Armor
3
3
3
4
4
Benefits from
Infantry Upgrades
Infantry Upgrades
Infantry Upgrades
Infantry Upgrades
Infantry Upgrades
Special
Conversion Resistance
Conversion Resistance
Conversion Resistance
Conversion Resistance
Conversion Resistance
The “Efficiency Ratio” I calculated for the different units needs to be interpreted as: “If my opponents spends X amount of the ressources as I did in my Eagle/Falcon/Dayaks, there will be an even outcome of the fight.”
So a value > 1 means I have the edge over that other unit, whilst a value <1 means my unit is (soft) countered. Values of >2 or <.5 indicate a very hard counter scenario as it would mean that one side only needs to invest half the amount of ressources to still get an “even” result.
In the tables below I show the units fighting each other at basically even upgrade stages. So the MAA fights a Scout, the Long Swordsman a Warrior and the 2HS an Elite Warrior.
MAA
Supp MAA
LS
2HS
Champ
Efficiency Ratio Eagle
0.669642857
0.54092364
0.370919067
0.397413286
0.347736626
Efficiency Ratio Falcon
0.666666667
0.535869996
0.401902497
0.459317139
0.301426873
Efficiency Ratio Dayak
0.508276872
0.406006006
0.406006006
0.406006006
0.360894228
Knight
Cavalier
Paladin
Efficiency Ratio Eagle
0.771887755
0.804049745
0.543180272
Efficiency Ratio Falcon
1.263964844
1.392940848
0.952989366
Efficiency Ratio Dayak
0.475264192
0.57031703
0.39692394
Scout Cav
BL Scout Cav
Scout Cav (C)
Light Cav
Hussar
Efficiency Ratio Eagle
0.956632653
0.675270108
1.43494898
1.147959184
1.246355685
Efficiency Ratio Falcon
1.857142857
1.3
2.166666667
2.2
1.9
Efficiency Ratio Dayak
1.016553744
0.717567349
2.125521464
1.101266556
1.141312612
Eagle Scout
Eagle Scout (C)
Eagle Warrior
Elite Eagle
Mayan Elite Eagle
Aztec Elite Eagle
Incan Elite Eagle
Efficiency Ratio Eagle
1
1
1
1
0.6
0.833333333
0.857142857
Efficiency Ratio Falcon
1.139145299
0.98
1.197777778
1.161481481
0.696888889
0.725925926
0.995555556
Efficiency Ratio Dayak
1.221181159
1.175952227
1.433191777
1.259948815
0.734970142
0.755969289
1.102455213
Loomed Villager
Loomed Villager (v Blacksmith upgraded)
Efficiency Ratio Eagle
0.843253968
1.736111111
Efficiency Ratio Falcon
1.056635672
2.958579882
Efficiency Ratio Dayak
1.525334859
2.135468802
As you also can see the new scout units have a slightly positive matchup against the current eagles, at least without the civ-specific upgrades.
Which is intentional as they need a higher food supply and are also less versatile in general. Also the current mesos have really strong eco bonusses which could be used to just overwhealm that slight counter mechanic with sheer numbers. The current eagle civs also have very strong anti-infantry weapons to deal with the new scout variants. I think it’s kind of fair that the new, more specialised foot scouts at least have a slightly favorable matchup with the more versatile eagles.
I also have already some ideas for uniqu units that can be given to these new scout civs and will post them at some time in this thread aswell.
I kinda struggle with finding names for these units, but I think the thread name already indicates that this thread is mostly to try create new unit concepts and less about how they are implemented in an actual civ then.
Imo we already have a lot of these slow firing Gupowder units in the game. Why no fast firing unit with low damage and/or a very big spread of the projectiles?
I feel currently gunpowder units have actually already too high dmagae but too bad rof Increasing the damage even more wouldn’t really add much to them, btu an even worse ROF would hurt them imo.
Replacement or a new Infantry UU? And what specifications should it have? Just be a better Champ or should it have bonus damage, higher armor or whatever?
Janissaries already have 8 range.
So you would propose a unit that has like 9 or 10 or even 11 range in castle age?
Castle without fletching is 8 btw, so you would be able to outrange castles without the range upgrades?
But with the invention of bettter lock systems gunpowder weapons could fire in more rapid succession than arbalests.
The organ gun is also slow firing and has high damage. Imo it would be a totally new unit type. One gunpowder unit with high range and fast firerate but lower damage output per shot. This would reduce the pressuring potential in castle age as they wouldn’t be able to bust through bildings as fast. They still would be very annoying cause they would be able to herass a bigger area. But with the wide spread it would be hard to get an unstoppable ball ralling at least in castle age.
I think it could be interesting unit, but the question is who should get it and how should it be named?
Have we forgotton some gunpowder civs that could get it?
Your approach for historical accuracy actually leads to the weird behaviour that gunpowder units are strong in castle age but fall of heavily in imp and larger scale battles.
One death we have to die and for me the actual gameplay is actually more important. I’m fine if the units have “historically inaccurate” stats, as long as they play out in a way you expect them to.
Also it comes somehow the question to mind why this “historically accurate” arguments in so many cases leads to completely inaccurate behaviour / playout in the game. Something is off there, clearly.
And as far it is from my perspective I prefer to have units that effectively play out as you expect them to over the historical accuracy. At least in the cases where there is an either or.
Weirdly enough we have many historical inaccuracies in the game that even play out weridly and seemingly almost nobody cares really about it. I tried several times to adjust genitours and give them to the civs they belong to, for example. And they would fit perfecly in the Spanish roster, just to name one of them. But they remain with a civ that basically needst them the least AND was actually fighting against them… so…
Theoretically, the eagle is an alternative for cavalry, so it has the characteristics of scout cavalry and knight at the same time. But these two units have developed their own roles due to different characteristics, which makes the eagle can’t do both roles well to some extent and forces it to be pretty “versatile” otherwise it cannot deal with anything.
Ideally, what I’m looking forward to is a new eagle-like unit that doesn’t cost gold to play as horseless scout cavalry. It would have cheap cost, wide LoS, high speed, weak stats and accessible from the feudal (or even the dark) age. It would probably need at least 2 PA to be effective as a raider. It would also probably need a slight attack bonus against cavalry (rather than against archers) so that it can play fairly against scout cavalry (as the exchange for resources).
About naming, I wish it could be a little more generic.
For example: Scout Infantry → Light Infantry → Shock Infantry/Elite Light Infantry
After introducing this unit, maybe also slightly adjust the stats of the eagle to better play the role of the knight, such as spending more food, having higher attack and narrow LoS, and accessible from the castle age. Even, making the eagle a unit exclusive to a few civilizations, such as the regional unit for the Aztecs and Mayans.
The issue with goldless eagles is that they don’t have a trash counter. You would need to make one of the other trash unist counter them, which might be awkward and potentially even need a new armor class for them.
Also I’m not too much sold about making new eagles just basically a different version of scout cavalry. I think there should be clear differences like I tried with making one version more light cav like, strong vs monks and archers and the others more heavy cav like with bonus vs cavalry. But both have clearly destinct own matchups vs most units that you face than the cavalry counterparts.
Trash eagles might be interesting, but I currently don’t have a realistic idea how I would implement them practically.
And if I would attempt it, I would probably try to make it being countered by light cav in the lategame as it naturally would destroy the other 2 trash units. This ofc would lead to the unit being basically unusable in castle age and early imp vs heavy cavalry.
We could also try to not give it the attack bonus against cavalry to give it a weakness against the hussar in the late game.
It is reasonable. The light cavalry can’t fight against heavy cavalry too.
As long as the light infantry line can be spawned in the late game, can fight against archers (at least in the Feudal), can raid fast, and can resist the conversion and siege, it can achieve what it needs to be, something like the light cavalry line. At the same time, the eagle, now play the role like a knight, may have more power against archers and cavalry, but become expensive and easily be convert.
Plumes have pierce armor and a lot of HP. They are also kinda fast.
This has quite low range, which would make it hard to micro against other ranged units.
I already had a similar Idea for one of my ranged units with “poison”. Poisonous ranged attacks reduce the melee armor of the hit units by 1. But only the melee armor, not the pierce armor.
I created two different types of units for the two new eagle variants. One blowpipe warrior for the Falcon Scout and an Archer with poisonous arrows for the Dayak.Whilst the Blowpipe warrior has very low damage on it’s own, he is fairly cheap and ideal to support the falcon against infantry (but also to some extend against cavalry). The Poison Archer is a quite good standalone unit in the midgame that would probably fall of in the lategame due to it’s high gold cost, low HP and overkill damage. Then the armor reduction would come into play if it’s more used in low numbers as a support unit, especially against heavy armored opponents.
Name
Poison Arrow Warrior
Elite Poison Arrow Warrior
Armor Class
Archer
Archer
Armor Class
Unique Unit
Unique Unit
Produced at
Castle
Castle
Production Time
15 s
12 s
Production Cost
75 G, 25 W
75 G, 25 W
HP
40
50
Speed
1.2
1.2
ROF
2
2
Attack (ranged)
8 Pierce
10 Pierce
Atk Bonus
2 vs Infantry
3 vs Infantry
Range
4
4
Accuracy
80%
85%
Melee Armor
0
0
Pierce Armor
0
0
Benefits from
Archer Upgrades
Upgrade Cost
60 s
600 G, 500 F
Special
Each hit reduces
Melee Armor by 1 down to min 0
Name
Blowpipe Warrior
Elite Blowpipe Warrior
Armor Class
Archer
Archer
Armor Class
Unique Unit
Unique Unit
Produced at
Castle
Castle
Production Time
10 s
10 s
Production Cost
35 G, 25 W
35 G, 25 W
HP
25
30
Speed
1.1
1.1
ROF
1.2
1.2
Attack (ranged)
4 Pierce
4 Pierce
Atk Bonus
1 vs Infantry
2 vs Infantry
Atk Bonus
1 vs Spearman
2 vs Spearman
Range
4
4
Accuracy
100%
100%
Melee Armor
0
0
Pierce Armor
0
0
Benefits from
Archer Upgrades
except TR
Upgrade Cost
40 s
300 G, 450 F
Special
Each hit reduces
Melee Armor by 1 down to min -10
The Poison Arrow Warrior’s armor reduction could possibly be increased to 2 to compensate for the higher cost and accounting for the higher overall damage output.
@SMUM15236
It would be nice if you made a complete unit design cause for now a lot of important stats are still unknown to exactly determine what direction you wanna go with that unit, what’s the identity. Is ist a knight eater?
SO you litereally just want a gbeto that deals pierce damage instead of melee?
Gbetos are akready kinda hard to make work.
I think you need something extra to make a useful unit out of them, maybe a shorter attack delay, some bonus damage. I also think it needs at lesat 12 atk in imp cause the other units get usuaally +1/+2 P Armor.
TBH I think the Gbeto could just use a rework. Something just doesn’t adds up there. It was so cool when the unit was part of the malian comp at some time, but now malianst usually just do anything but gbeto.
