Sling is probably easir than bows, no?
For a sling you only need 1 hand.
But idk if a sling horseman is such a good idea, given that it will most likely have bonus damgae vs infantry. This thing plus hussar would probably be super abnoxious to deal with.
This civilization should have no Hussars, and probably no Plate Barding Armor.
Pretty sure a sling and a bolas are different units/weapons.
Here is an interesting discussion on the same subject.
I wouldn’t ask for full accuracy on this point, like the Mamluks are the most well-known example, and there are many others. There is no demand for long pikes in America without cavalry, the long pikes used by Kamayuk are more for ceremonial purposes than actual combat. What Korean Hwacha should actually be like is not firing a bolt in a Chinese style wagon. Hun cavalry would not fight with a torch alone against an enemy with a sword or spear. Chakram thrown by manpower is basically impossible to penetrate the enemy.
In my statement above, I provided a reference for Tibetan soldiers using slings and herdsmen who are proficient in using slings are often recruited as cavalry, and the design can refer to AoE3 Bolas Rider, but more importantly, such an unit is very Interesting and potential. For example, Emperor Songtsen Gampo sent troops to conquer Magadha of India in order to save the Chinese ambassador, so this may make the Sling cavalry’s attack bonus against camels.
Some ideas that have been mentioned before in many threads about potential new civs.
The UU of Jurchens: Iron Flail
People’s impression of using flails is more about Europeans, but in parts of East Asia, especially in North China, Manchuria and Korea, similar weapons are also used. Their common form is a multi-sectioned wooden or metal stick, such as the two-section staff or three-section staff. The common feature of Europe and those areas is that wheat is the main crop, and the flail-type weapons are derived from the agricultural tools used to process wheat.
Those used by cavalry usually had one end made longer or like a hilt for use on horseback, and possibly more sections, such as the nine-section whip. (In Chinese, the term “whip” also refers to some hard metal clubs and sticks.) In the Chinese folk story, cavalrymen of the Manchu Eight Banners used this type of weapon to conquer China.
The image of this unit can refer to the AoE3 Iron Flail. In AoE2, I want it to be a melee cavalry with 1 or 2 range, with lower attack than Knight line, but can cause damage to multiple units in a straight line, similar to Chakram Thrower and Scorpion. And/Or, the enemy units damaged by it will slow the speed and rate of fire by 10% (no stack), similar to the snare effect of AoE3. The slowed units must be fully healed to restore, like Obuch’s ability.
The UU of Khitans: Crossbow Cavalry
As we all know, the Chinese invented the crossbow very early. The warriors of state of Qin used crossbows on horseback. Hundreds of years later, the Khitans imported crossbows from the Song Empire of China, and the Chinese communities they ruled may have provided related technology as well.
Although the crossbow cavalry is quite rare, in the History of Song, there was still a record of observing soldiers of Khitan’s elite heavy cavalry troops firing arrows with crossbows (even though it did not record it was on foot or on horseback). In the Chinese Internet world, some history buffs infer from this that the Chinese and the Khitans were the only forces in East Asian history, and maybe world history, that had heavy cavalry to use crossbows.
Unlike some other empires originating from nomadic tribes, the Khitans preferred to fight in dense heavy cavalry formations rather than the wide formations of horse archers. Harassing the enemy on flanks through a large number of very lightly armoured (almost unarmoured) horse archers levied from the tribes and non-Khitan communities, forcing the enemy into chaos and hard to move, and then crushing them to finish the battle by the heavy cavalry, the core of the empire’s army.
The Crossbow Cavalry would be interesting and full of potential in the game. As a cavalry archer unit, it may have high HP, armor and attack power, but has a shorter range, slower speed and rate of fire, just like a cataphract archer. Or, as a tough melee heavy cavalry with a charge bar that ablr to fire a crossbow bolt with piercing damage when fully charged. If the civ can also have trash Cavalry Archers, it will allow the two types of unit to work with each other, like the tactic above.
The UU of Göktürks: Böri (Wolf Guard)
In Göktürks, the elite warriors who make up the khan’s guard were called “böri”, which means “the wolf”. They were responsible for the safety of the Khan and the royal family. These units may be fully armored with their horses. In the records, they were pronounced “fuli” by the Chinese.
We can design it as a cataphract lancer. Even with zero HP, it can still launch attacks, take attacks and move for three seconds before actually dying. When the cavalry is equipped with enough heavy armor and fixed on the horseback, even if it dies while charging, its mount can continue to charge and still deal damage.
Btw, they seemed to have a good tradition of heavy infantry as a nomadic empire. There are records that a prince led the infantry to charge and achieved a key victory. But I’d rather it be a historical reference to bonus about infantry than being an infantry UU.
Some ideas that have been mentioned before in other threads too.
Cima:
As the Sefawa dynasty of Kanem–Bornu Empire extended control beyond Kanuri tribal lands, fiefs were granted to military commanders, as cima, or master of the frontier. This unit could be a camel lancer unit.
Elephant Connoneer:
Stronger but more expensive and slower Conquistador-like unit. As an elephant unit, it could an attack bonus against infantry. Perhaps it is very suitable as the UU of a new Southeast Asian civilization, maybe the Siamese.
Elephant Monk:
Missionary-like unit with more HP but costs food and is slower. Unlike the Missionary, it can carry Relic on the elephant’s back. Maybe the second UU of the Siamese.
Elephant Javelineer:
Powerful Genitour-like unit that costs food and gold. Unlike general skirmisher-type units, it has no minimum range because the elephant’s back is high enough.
Guecha Warrior:
When I was looking up information about the Muisca, I read that Guecha warriors’ common weapons include darts. Maybe make the Guecha Warrior a dart unit on foot, like a dismounted Arambai.
Maceman:
An Armenian crusader with a heavy mace on its hands and a large shield on its back. Has trample damage, high HP, high attack, extremely high attack bonus against buildings, high armor, but expensive and rather slow speed and rate of fire. Maybe classified as infantry + siege weapon, so can also benefit from Siege Engineers.
Musketeer:
Matchlock firearms have already been widely used all over the world in the 16th century. It can an upgrade of the Hand Cannoneer, with better accuracy and rate of fire, becoming the main force of the civ.
Țintaşi: The Vlach marksman. An archer unit with charging damage. Possibly in exchange for a higher price, slower speed, slower rate of fire, longer training time, or lower HP.
Villager Wagon: Inspired by Settler Wagon of AoE3. The second villager unit at TC, costs 50 food, 50 wood and 2 population, with twice as the gathering, construction and repair efficiency as Villagers. The civ could start the game with 1 Villager and 1 Villager Wagon.
Interesting, I’ll also post some of my ideas about the unique units for potential new civs, you might have already seen some of them in my earlier posts
Elepant Gunner: potentially the UU for the Siamese civ, similar to a slower but tankier version of the Conquistador, has area-of-effect damage.
Imperial Battle Elephant: a plausible second UU for the Siamese, an unique upgrade to the Elite Battle Elephant, filling the gap between a Persian War Elephant and a Battle Elephant.
Elephant Skirmisher: a skirmisher mounted on an elephant, like a slower but tankier version of the Genitour. Not sure which potential civ it could be assigned, maybe could function as a new regional unit for SE Asian civs.
Camel Slinger: the UU for the Tanguts, a camel rider who uses a slingshot or light catapult as his weapon, has a bonus damage against infantry and functions like a faster version of the Slinger.
Tiefutu: the UU for the Jurchens, a heavy cavalry archer type of unit with high base melee and pierce armor but much slower than generic cavalry archers. I imagine it as either having a low pierce attack but its pierce attack would ignore enemy pierce armor, or having a very high charged pierce attack with the first shot then dropping down to average pierce attack and then another high pierce attack when fully charged, basically the charging mechanic used on a ranged unit.
Three-Eyed Hand Cannoneer: a plausible UU for the Ryukyuans, like a Chu Ko Nu version of the Hand Cannoneer, rapid fire but shorter ranged compared to generic ones, and also has a longer frame delay.
Luojuzi: the UU for the Dians/Nanzhao/Lolos, a skirmisher with the speed akin to an Eagle Warrior, but instead of having an anti-archer bonus it has an anti-cavalry bonus.
Raeu Tribesman: a plausible second UU for the Dians/Nanzhao/Lolos, a light infantry armed with a trident and a rattan shield, trained at the Barracks in the Castle Age and has no elite upgrade, attacks 20% faster on elevated and on marshy terrains, has a slight anti-cavalry bonus as well.
Fire Lancer: a plausible regional UU for East Asian civs, trained at the Siege Workshop in the Castle Age and has an elite upgrade, functions like a Fire Ship on land, and has a bonus damage against standard buildings and siege weapons.
Flail Cavalry: another plausible regional UU for East Asian civs, trained at the Stable in Castle Age and has an elite upgrade, a short-ranged melee cavalry with a scorpion-like capability.
Haluwbilau: a plausible UU for the Chams, a melee infantry armed with a short spear and a large shield, can switch itself to skirmisher mode if needed.
Blowgunner: a plausible UU for the Moluccans or the Visayans, a ranged unit with a poisoned attack similar to the Jungle Archer in AOE 3.
Ula Throwing Club: a plausible UU for the Tongans or the Polynesians, a ranged unit that throws a warclub at the enemy, has a high attack and high HP, and deals bonus damage against cavalry and siege.
Tomahawk Thrower: a plausible UU for the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois), a ranged unit that throws two axes at the same time.
Chimu Maceman: a plausible UU for the Chimus, a heavy infantry armed with a large mace, has a bonus damage against buildings and defensive structures, like a dismounted Tarkan.
Any civi from the indian subcontinent can have this.
The Indian civs already have the Elephant Archer as their common regional archer unit, if the devs were to introduce the Elephant Skirmisher into the game then it should be given to the SE Asian civs.
I’ll just make a note here that, rather than using the “Falcon warrior” name which I’m pretty sure is made up, you could have the unit be called Chasqui, which were the Runners of the Inca empire and I know is a term also used by other andean peoples and the mapuche, at the very least.
Another variant of the Eagle runner would probably be welcome for subsaharian civilizations, I’d propose the name “Pombo” which were a division of warriors meant, at least in theory, to keep up with the pace of horses in the kingdom of Kongo, no idea about the stats though.
This would also be interesting. If I understand you right the Kongolese would have access to cavalry but also to that “Pombo”? That would allow for a very unique unit design probably. As you wouldn’t need to have a unit that can perform the same utility as the cav in the mid and lategame.
I actually was inspired by the proposal for the Mississippians . So you’re right it doesn’t really fit in south america.
But I don’t want to change the Incas either. The idea was to give it to new south american civs that at some point also get access to light cav, as the conquistadores brough horses and some of the cultures there reportedly started breedy their own horses quite shortly after that.
This was intended to give a good distinction between the mesos and the newer south american civs, which at least would have these light cav to deal with monks in the midgame. And ofc to have light cav as trash units available in the lategame aswell.
This also frees up some more creative space for the foot scout line as it wouldn’t be required to counter monks, so it can be stronger against other units, like Cavalry.
They knew of horses (mostly when the portuguese introduced them), but they really couldn’t breed them due to local conditions. African horse sickness and sleeping sickness were even worse than they are today, so introducing horses farther south than the sahel was pretty much impossible.
We already have melee BE and ranged elephants EA as generic units, does it make sense to add another ranged elephant as a generic unit?
Especially a skirm ele feels super weird. Weak against all the other trash units, but expensive and slow.
Don’t think that makes any sense to add tbh.
But ok, it’s a creative collection thread, maybe someone get’s some weird inspiration by this idea what then makes for a good UU…
Can always add the charging mechanic.
A heavy cavalry UU that is actually stronger than knight line entirely.
Cost : 70f/70g
TT : 18 seconds
HP : 115, 175
Attack : 12, 15
Melee Armor : 2, 3
Pierce Armor : 3
Firing Rate : 1.9
Speed : 1.3
LOS : 5
Elite Upgrade : 1500 food, 1000 gold
Upgrade Time : 70 seconds
You need to boost it a lot if you want it viable…
All Cav UUs have the same problem (look even at rathas). The Knight is just way more easily accessible and does it’s job just fine.
If you want a unit that sometimes is chosen over the knight line, you must give it insane power, otherwise it’s just almost never used.
Also that Training Time is way too long for a Castle unit.
Look at Boyars.
Just some feedback here.
I don’t see the need for splash damage, especially since it’s already a tough mounted gunpowder unit.
As I stated above for Elephant Connoneer, the attack bonus of gunpowder against infantry is enough to make it counter to the main threat, the Spearmen.
This is likely not practical, as Elite BE upgrades are already expensive.
I had previously suggested introducing Imperial Hussar as a unit for future Poles, and I was then reminded that the upgrade cost of Hussar already made it impossible to upgrade into the next stage. It also turns out that the devs would rather replace Hussar with Winged Hussar than introduce an upgrade to Hussar.
It’s better way to let Siamese have bonus or UT to improve BE.
On the other hand, as I stated above, I personally want that Siamese second UU is a monk unit.
If it’s a trash unit, it must be weaker than the gold-costing one.
If it’s an Archery Range unit, it might also be weaker than the one at Castle.
If it’s an regional unit, then it might be weaker again than the UU one.
As such, it would have to be incredibly cheap as an elephant unit, otherwise it might be totally useless. But in any case, such a unit is still not as useful as a genaral Skirmisher, making it a highly situational unit and pointless. I remember before in other threads someone else had reminded you that civs don’t need such type of unit unless the civ doesn’t have general Skirmishers, or make it a strong gold UU at Castle.
As long as it’s a gold UU, it has more chance of getting better stats like attack bonuses, making it very effective against all ranged units and even Spearmen, and surviving decently long enough against melee units. That’s how I stated Elephant Javelineer above as well.
According to later generations’ analysis of the “Poxi” troop of Xi Xia, it used a large slingshot with net bag to launch stones on camels’ back, which technically close to catapult rather than sling.
Like the Ballista Elephant, the mounted unit + siege weapon unit is always fresh, interesting and exciting to look forward to, although I don’t think it needs a bonus against infantry when it’s somthing like a fast but low attack Mangonel. If it is nothing more than a mounted slinger, it is very similar to the Tibetan Slinger Cavalry I stated above. It’s just that camels are not common in Tibet, so it doesn’t fit the Tibetans.
Anyway, the Tanguts and Tibetans would likely be covered by the same civ if they were to be introduced into the game, due to the political risk and their common ancestry, the Qiangs. If the civ is based primarily on Tibetans, making the Camel Catapult unable as the UU, I’d look forward to seeing it in the scenario editor.
In my impression, this unit was known for its melee charge. As such, it should be a cavalry unit rather than a mounted ranged unit. However, such a melee heavy cavalry unit is already adequately represented in the game by the Paladin, so I personally prefer to make Tiefutu an UT that provides Paladin and UU bonuses, which is similar to the Farimba of Malians, rather than being a unit.
In addition, I don’t think ignoring armor or charge damage is suitable for ranged units with mobility (even though slower than general CA). The Țintaşi, a ranged unit with charge damage, I stated is on foot and might still need to have at least one weaker stat to balance.
On the other hand, in the thread about Nubians before, I have suggested that Nubian archer UU is with standard archer health, speed and armor, very low base attack (like 2 or 3), but fire 33% faster than the Archer line and have Ballistic effect by default. Then, the Castle Age UT named “Archer of the Eye” is still needed to allow this UU (and even defensive buildings’ arrows) to ignore the target’s “base” PA. This requires that such the ability must be unlocked through UT. And, while making UU as the killer of high PA units, the regular Archer line is still better at fighting low PA units.
Well, just for reference.
Similar to Eagle Runner Knight of AoE3? If so, not bad.
Can’t find historical reference for this. What is “Raeu”?
There are actually no or very few elevated grounds in many maps, such as the Black Forest and Arena. Triggering on shallows (I’m guessing that’s what you mean by “marshy terrains”) is also erratic, since most maps have almost no shallows, and a few maps have large areas of shallows. This advantage is too dependent on the map.
The Tatar bonus is an extra, based on the fact that units can still function even if they are not on elevated ground. However, if the specialness of this Tribesman is only on that 20%, once the map does not have these conditions, it has no characteristics, which is a pity design in my opinion.
Also, according to your design, the civ of Lolos/Nuosu people already has an anti-cavalry UU, which makes the Tribesman design pale in comparison.
Using the AoE3 units as an analogy, this is to make it continuously breathe fire like a Flamethrower instead of launching projectiles like a Grenadier. Are you sure it’s what Fire Lance should be like?
Essentially same as the Iron Flail I stated above. 
That makes it feel like a more powerful Steppe Lancer when it is at Stable, and it might be broken as it can be accessed by many civs. It can just be the UU of the Jurchens at Castle.
Not a fan. This will allow only gold infantry and Mangonel to counter it effectively. Once it is combined with other units like Knights, there are no counter options.
Why not make Elephant Javelineer be their UU?
Pretty similar to my Armanian Maceman.
Well I think giving it an anti-infantry bonus would be too strong considering that it’s already quite tanky, so maybe giving it an anti-spearman bonus is enough.
Here’s a possible solution, make it a unique upgrade to the Battle Elephant that is only available to the Siamese (hence instead of the elite BE upgrade the Siamese would have access to this), and we could name it Royal BE or Naresuan’s BE, which has slightly stronger base stats than other civs’ elite BE. I personally still want the Siamese second UU to be something elephant related instead of a monk unit.
I don’t think it could be a UU since its feature is too generic to be a UU, if somehow it cannot be balanced as a regional Archery Range unit for the SE Asian civs (just like what the devs did turning the Elephant Archer from a UU to a regional unit for the Indian civs) then I see no point of introducing this unit.
I don’t think it’s supposed to be a large catapult, mangonel, or trebuchet type of weapon since it can be mounted on a camel’s back and that limits how large and how heavy it can be. Imagining it as a camel rider armed with a slingshot or perhaps a staff sling is nothing out of the realm of reality, at least it would make much more sense than the scimitar-throwing Mameluke. And it’s not the same as your Tibetan Slinger Cavalry; first it’s not a horse but a camel, and secondly I had this idea as the UU of the Tanguts way back almost two years ago. And no my Tangut civ doesn’t include or represent the Tibetans; it only represents the Tanguts. The Tibetan civ is unlikely to be introduced into the game for obvious reasons, whereas the Tangut civ is much more likely to be introduced if the devs really want to make an East Asian DLC. And the Tanguts certainly had access to camels given their location in northwestern China.
It’s true that Tiefutu was mainly known for their charging ability, but since we already have a lot of melee cavalry UUs and plus the Paladin in the game I think making it a ranged heavy CA type of unit is better. And historically the Sushen, Jurchens, and Manchus were well-known for their archery skills. Their bows weren’t as far-shooting as Mongol, Chinese, or Turkic cavalry bows but they could shoot heavier arrows designed for armor-piercing, that’s where my idea of charged pierce attack comes from. And it’s easy to balance such a unit as well, either making it having a longer frame delay or making it slower (like 1.3 or 1.25 instead of the 1.4 for generic CA).
The Liao/Raeu (僚/獠）were a native people of Southern/Southwestern China first mentioned in the 3rd or 4th century AD and continued to appear in Sinitic records through much of the medieval era as late as the Yuan and early Ming periods. I prefer to use the character 僚 when referring to them since it doesn’t carry the derogatory meaning that the other character does, however the historically accurate character would be the one with the derogatory meaning 獠, as the Sinitic people thought of themselves as the center of the world and gave surrounding peoples bad names. And according to linguistic and historical analysis they were most likely the ancestors of the various Tai-Kradai peoples inhabiting Southwestern China today. I chose to give them the Tai-Kradai name Raeu (meaning “we” or “us”) instead of the Sinitic name Liao because that name would easily confound them with the Liao Khitans, to which they had no relation whatsoever.
And despite they never founded any kingdom of their own, they were quite unruly, rebellious, and warlike, and were a nuisance to the Sinitic people for several centuries. And as such I want them to be represented in the game, of course they cannot be their own civ, however I see them fitting as a second UU for my Dians/Lolos civ since I envision this civ to not only cover Nanzhao/Dali but also the various Non-Sinitic tribes that had existed in surrounding regions.
I agree that at the moment my design for them seems to be rather niche. As a possible remedy we can remove the terrain bonus entirely and either give them a special attack ability (like for instance be able to slow the enemy unit down by X% with each hit) or even better make their attack rate a group-related bonus which would be fitting for their name, like for instance attacks 10% faster when 2 Raeu Tribesmen are attacking the same unit, 15% faster when 3 Raeu Tribesmen are attacking the same unit, and so forth (though there needs to be a limit).
And the reason why I think they should have a slight anti-cavalry bonus is because I designed the Dians/Lolos civ as lacking the Halberdier upgrade and relying entirely on the 2 UUs for defense against cavalry.
Yes I’m pretty sure that was what the fire lance was originally like when it was first invented sometime around the 10th or the 11th century, basically a large firecracker attached to the end of the spear which could create a lot of flame and smoke to scare away the besieging enemy or enemy horses. And it was not used on horseback like how it’s portrayed in AoE4, it was mainly an infantry weapon used during siege or siege defense. Later versions of the fire lance used during the Ming Dynasty had some shrapnel, pebbles, iron sand, or lead pellets mixed in to add some extra damage, but still it was nowhere near as powerful as a grenade-launcher but more akin to a flamethrower.
Sorry but you do not own any of the ideas you mentioned. As long as they stay in the imaginary stage and aren’t added in the actual game there’s no copyright infringement to talk about whatsoever. And I did not copy from you since I believe I had the idea earlier than you. I remember I mentioned it in a thread about how the Korean UU War Wagon isn’t historically accurate; I said that they could have the Flail Cavalry as a potential replacement for the War Wagon, and then you took the idea from there.
From a historical POV it should be a pan-East Asian unit since the Tanguts, the Chinese, the Koreans, the Mongols, the Jurchens/Manchus, and possibly the Vietnamese all had it.
It’s countered not only by gold infantry but also by cavalry and by archers. I imagine it as a raiding unit with bonus damage against civilian units (Villagers, Trade Carts, and Fishing Ship) but not against archers. And I don’t think the Mangonel would be a good counter because when a Mangonel is near it can close-in the distance and switch to melee infantry mode. It’s more versatile than generic skirms due to its ability to switch between 2 modes that’s why it’s a UU.
The reason why I don’t want the Elephant Javelineer to be their UU is that first there’re no records or other historical evidence mentioning it and secondly it’s too generic to be a UU.
Again you don’t own any of the ideas since they either came from me or from others. And I did not copy from you cause I suggested it for a completely different civ.