Less Tedious Lombards

Streamlining the way the Italian economy works could help stabilize their balance and make the civ smoother to play.


Lombards are an interesting compromise to give Italians a “Bank” without giving them the same thing as the Dutch (because Banks + Architects would be completely broken). But in practice they’re quite tedious and don’t actually yield any resources without the Uffizi and Usary cards and a lot of manual input and resources tied up. Given that Lombards should theoretically be good enough to make up for one less Factory, something needs to be done to make them a little less taxing. Altering some of Italy’s cards to give Lombards some automatic resource inputs would greatly alleviate how tedious they are.

The build limit should also be reduced (maybe to 3?) since building more only has the benefit of making the exchange faster.

Guardia di Finanza could work similar to Ethiopia’s Cartridge Currency card and grant input for defeated military units.

image Guardia di Finanza (I)

Current: Adds coin equal to 5% of the cost of all defeated enemy units to the player’s stockpile up to a maximum of 3,000 coin
New: For every enemy unit killed an amount of coin equal to 25% of their experience bounty is deposited into the player’s Lombards

Financer Cards

The financier cards could work more like Jesuit Influence or Spanish Gold and give recurring input over time. Just imagine X and Y as whatever number makes you happy. Usary should just be a technology as it fits the theme of the building and is practically essential for their utility.

image Sienese Financers (II)

Current: Deposits 800 food into the player’s Lombards
New: Deposits X food into the player’s Lombards and Y for each future shipment

X = ~300
Y = ~200

image Luccan Financers (III)

Current: Deposits 1,200 wood into the player’s Lombards
New: Deposits X wood into the player’s Lombards and Y for each future shipment

X = ~700
Y = ~200

image Genoese Financers (III)

Current: Deposits 1,200 coin into the player’s Lombards
New: Deposits X coin into the player’s Lombards and Y for each future shipment

X = ~700
Y = ~200

image Florentine Financers (IV)

Current: Deposits 2,300 coin into the player’s Lombards
New: Deposits X coin into the player’s Lombards and Y of each resource for each future shipment

X = ~1000
Y = ~200

Lombard Technologies

Moving some cards to technologies and adding some new ones could greatly improve utility, and let you get a few more Settlers by researching them. To prevent these from being available to any teammate via Team Lombardy, these technologies could be locked behind the Advanced Lombards card.

image Advanced Lombards (III)

Current: Lombards trickle resources twice as fast
New: Lombards trickle resources twice as fast and have access to new technologies

image Double-Entry Bookkeeping (III)

New: For each invested coin, Lombards now return 15% more food and wood

image Usury (IV)

Current: Lombards now return 25% more coin for each invested other resource
New: Same effect but as a technology at the Lombard instead of a card


Architects are the main source of recent Italian exploits and could use a few adjustments to bring them in line. One of their major problems is that adding multiple Architects to a build linearly improves building speed, so multiple Architects can put down things like Outposts extremely quickly. This was somewhat addressed by locking Outposts behind the Freemasons card. However, I think this is a bit misguided, and Architects should be able to build Outposts by default, but multiple Architects should not linearly improve build rates until after Freemasons (would be thematic for a cooperative secret society). Improving Architect build rate should also be split between Stonemasons and Freemasons. It is very unintuitive that Stonemasons doesn’t improve Architects and sending this card is basically committing to neglecting using Architects. Splitting the improvement between two cards also makes committing to full Architect cheese require sending an additional card.

image Stonemasons (I)

Current: All villagers, except Architects, build buildings 65% faster
New: All villagers build rate +65%; Architects build rate -50%

image Freemasons (III)

Current: Architects get +25% speed and +65% build rate; enables Architects to build Outposts and Walls
New: Architects get +25% speed and +50% build rate; Architect group build rate is linear


Given how safe Italy can lombard spank i dont think 600w per a lombard in age3 is balanced, or 5k res in age4 like brah, brospeh, my brother of a different mother did you not realize how broken these cards were at 1500/3k but want them to be able to get 1.8-3k/, 3-5k trivially? i think they are fine as is tbh the issue with italy is more so needing the game knowledge to use their vill per a tech and 3 res macro efficiently. it’s like haude’s crates, it takes more practice but is better value.

As for guardia, well this seems nice and is a low priority card to help them sustain in treaty or team games where their roster is less suited for. a change like this doesnt mess with the existing balance and gives some reason to take it. also ursury should be ok albeit tbh you are deposting food most of the time anyways, and italy can do ok its just their imperial units dont allow you to trade efficetly as their eco allows. some small buffs to their units in imperial or a slight boost to ursury (.05 extra coin) would also be really great for them, or something to get wood efficiently to assist roman tactics (once its fixed).

tbh their biggest issue is lack of solid light infantry until age4 (and then berselgari do fall off vs 3x carded skirms and their other roster is lackluster), some readjustments to pavs would go a long way without reintroducing the op lombard spam of last patch. remember, you should always have 2+ lombards and its still easy to spam them with 1-2 archs and not give up tempo.
my 1 cent 1 shilling thoughts

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Since you’re so freaked out by the specifics I’ve replaced the numbers with placeholders. Just imagine whatever number you think is balanced.

I agree, my initial suggested numbers were ludicrous, but they were significantly lower than how the cards currently work. Right now Luccan Financers gives you 1200 resources per Lombard. That’s 6600 total resources (food conversion rate is 1.2) from a single shipment! With my proposal you’d need to send 6 additional shipments to catch up with that. Still way more than a standard crate shipment, but down significantly from where it is now. Italy does require tieing up a huge amount of resources in Lombards to make them productive, so maybe that’s what keeps these ludicrous deposits balanced.

Luccan doesnt work like that its just 1200 flat like genosese same with Florentine being 2300
All of them are flat deposits you can tell this since the deposit bank for lombards is shared.

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There should be an autofill option.

As it stands currently it’s just a bad building that can’t replace the second factory in industrial

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It’s a global deposit bank?! Holy shit the UI and explanation of these things is absolutely abysmal and I totally had the things confused. The fact that you can build multiple and all it does is improve the speed of exchange seems nearly useless.

But the numbers do make waaay more sense with that in mind. Still, the basic idea of an automatic investment with each shipment still holds, I just need to adjust the numbers.

this has been known since italy came out we have had threads discussing how lombards works


Admittedly I should have taken a closer look to understand them better before posting this. But I never got into playing Italy beyond some tests against the AI specifically because Lombards are so tedious and poorly explained. My point still stands that they should have some form of recurring deposits so you don’t have to babysit them so much.

I have seen nothing but confusion in those threads. None of the comments or tutorials ever explained that the only benefit to building more than one Lombard is getting a faster exchange rate. Maybe also some extra experience from Uffizi but that’s not clear either. Every description is super ambiguous if anything applies to each Lombard or all of them in general.

Even the in game description explicitly compares them to Banks, which is a horrible comparison and would indicate each individual Lombard does something.

I suppose my main cause of consternation is this:

Why can you build 5 of them if additional Lombards do almost nothing!?

Speeding up the exchange rate is practically useless compared to the utility of the initial Lombard. At the very least it should be clearly indicated what building multiples does. And even then it should be limited to like 3 at most to limit the potential for shenanigans with mercenaries. To offset having a lower build limit they could throw in a tech like Double-Entry Bookkeeping that speeds up the exchange rate and gives a slight profit too.

I can see that a lot of the descriptions notes that adding more lombards adds to the trickle to speed up returns but isn’t explicit about how multiple interacts.

it does say so more explicitly in the wiki atleast.

so this is an oversight cause this was basically noticed pretty early when the civ came out.

as for this I will just post this reply from a while back but basically its unraidable 2k hp crate gatherer that also generates xp at the same time.

Fully loaded its about iirc 6 res per sec so only slightly less than a vil’s 8 res per sec

also since its a global pool you only need to keep track of 1 while the others work all the same

Tbh the only thing I would change is either an auto button or have ui buttons like how the livestock market have buttons for you to click to sell without having to click the market

The UI sort of hints that each lombard has its own bank, but in practice the stockpile is shared. I had the same problem when Italy came out.

I haven’t seen any discussion or tutorial that states that. Definitely an oversight on my part, but it’s also not explained anywhere other than the Wiki. But the wiki is generally so bad that I didn’t look too closely and tried to experiment in game and got thrown off by the terrible UI and description there.

That’s the a good explanation of them, but it doesn’t answer why there needs to be 5 of them. Being able to build lots and having a description that explicitly calls them a Bank strongly indicates that they individually generate resources or at least individually exchange resources. They’re generally described as a Bank + Tavern which are both buildings with an individual gold trickle.

If you cut down on the number available that would indicate that their function isn’t about quantity. It would also make them easier to counter because there would be fewer to destroy. And it would limit Italy’s potential for spamming outlaws and mercenaries since they would have a more reasonable number of production buildings.

They do have individual trickles, its because their trickle time is limited by the res that you put into them that it feels different. Adding an addition lombards is adding another building with the same trickle, but its because more trickles eats up the deposit faster so its exchanging faster.

Theoretically after Usury in the lategame the lombards are essentially banks because they are generating net 25% gold for from the other res deposited, and in that case the more lombards you have, the more res you are generating.

Like theoretically, if the deposit requirement wasnt a thing and lombards just trickle no matter what, then it works exactly the same as banks

I think that is an excellent idea, an infinite shipment in Lombards literally fixes the Italian trash economy in treaty. But it must be implemented in such a way that it is not broken in supremacy.

put it in age IV with an initial pricetag.
That’d be the easiest way to avoid issues in Supremacy.

However,i don’t think in games against other players it would matter all that much tbh if it were merely in age 4.